3x230

[Lucien Nunes]

The wiring of buildings comes under a different set of regulations than the construction of portable appliances. For a start, BS7671 is specific to the UK (although it references and relies on many harmonised standards) whereas appliances in the EU are generally applicable anywhere.

Can someone quote the OP the reg number of '...must break all line conductors...'?

 

[Gardner]

The wiring of buildings comes under a different set of regulations than the construction of portable appliances. For a start, BS7671 is specific to the UK (although it references and relies on many harmonised standards) whereas appliances in the EU are generally applicable anywhere.

Can someone quote the OP the reg number of '...must break all line conductors...'?

Thanks

Id argue the same risks with a lamp also apply to a light fitting.

 

[davesparks]

But if its ok for a table lamp, why would it be different for a light fitting? Unless the socket is designed to denergize the screw shell when removing the bulb?

Double pole switches would be easy, but 2 way switches would be a challenge.

You couldn't use screw lampholders on this systwm you are proposing as the regulations require that line only be connected to the centre pin and neutral to the outer contact. You would have to use BC for GLS lamps

 

[Gardner]

You couldn't use screw lampholders on this systwm you are proposing as the regulations require that line only be connected to the centre pin and neutral to the outer contact. You would have to use BC for GLS lamps

How do table lamps get away with Schuko plugs though? Id imagine some safety mechanism is used on those sockets.

 

[ian.settle1]

How do table lamps get away with Schuko plugs though? Id imagine some safety mechanism is used on those sockets.

Why don't you ask an earlier question as to where you are from so people can answer your questions correctly?

 

[Pete999]

Am I missing something? Where or how are you measuring 230v between two lines?

Me as well

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I think it's a hypothetical question, I didn't get the impression that the OP was actually measuring this voltage. But systems that work in this way do exist, shipboard delta supply was one I mentioned. I also have a 20kVA generating set of the same voltage, 133V L-N, 230V L-L, but it's corner-grounded so the neutral star point is of no use and isn't brought out to the panel. You can have two supplies of 230V sharing what looks like a neutral, but when you measure between them, instead of 400V, you get 230V again because they're 60° apart not 120°.

 

[davesparks]

How do table lamps get away with Schuko plugs though? Id imagine some safety mechanism is used on those sockets.

Schuko plugs aren't used in this country so there is no point attempting to apply our regs to them

 

[snowhead]

Thanks

Id argue the same risks with a lamp also apply to a light fitting.

For changing a lamp a D.P switch in a fixed system provides isolation of both poles.
For changing a lamp with a Schuko plug, pulling the plug provides D.P isolation

 

[Gardner]

I think it's a hypothetical question, I didn't get the impression that the OP was actually measuring this voltage. But systems that work in this way do exist, shipboard delta supply was one I mentioned. I also have a 20kVA generating set of the same voltage, 133V L-N, 230V L-L, but it's corner-grounded so the neutral star point is of no use and isn't brought out to the panel. You can have two supplies of 230V sharing what looks like a neutral, but when you measure between them, instead of 400V, you get 230V again because they're 60° apart not 120°.

Its a center grounded wye made with 135 volt wingdings to give 230 volts L-L. It is indeed TN rather then IT.

Schuko plugs aren't used in this country so there is no point attempting to apply our regs to them

Id imagine the interior wiring would still be applicable, no?

 

[Lucien Nunes]

We seem to be going round in circles, because we don't know your motivation in asking the question and hence what parameters you are aiming to specify. Do you have equipment that you want to operate in the UK that expects such a supply? Or do you want to apply BS7671 to an installation outside the UK with this supply configuration? Or is it purely an academic question?

The UK LV electrical supply is standardised as 230/400 with one leg of single phase supplies at or near ground potential, for general applications. For specific purposes, you can use whatever voltage and configuration is necessary, but not for the general wiring of buildings. The specification of the supply delivered to the consumer's terminals falls outside the scope of BS7671, governed instead by the ESQCR.

Portable appliances are also outside the scope of BS7671 and must achieve pan-EU compatibility in order to be CE-marked and hence permissible to sell. As per posts 19 & 29, a portable appliance has double-pole isolation inherent when unplugged, so does not require special provisions for compatibility with supplies of unknown polarity.

 

[Gardner]

We seem to be going round in circles, because we don't know your motivation in asking the question and hence what parameters you are aiming to specify.

Ive asked what parameters I am interested in. Mainly if the IEC or BS allows such a system for domestic use and what special conditions need to be taken if any.

Do you have equipment that you want to operate in the UK that expects such a supply? Or do you want to apply BS7671 to an installation outside the UK with this supply configuration? Or is it purely an academic question?

Applying BS7671 to an installation outside the UK with such a configuration.

The UK LV electrical supply is standardised as 230/400 with one leg of single phase supplies at or near ground potential, for general applications. For specific purposes, you can use whatever voltage and configuration is necessary, but not for the general wiring of buildings.

What rules force 230 L-N for a building or domestic supply?

The specification of the supply delivered to the consumer's terminals falls outside the scope of BS7671, governed instead by the ESQCR.

Correct, but when a DNO provides 133/230Y TN-S as a supply, how can that be applied within the regs to a building?

Portable appliances are also outside the scope of BS7671 and must achieve pan-EU compatibility in order to be CE-marked and hence permissible to sell. As per posts 19 & 29, a portable appliance has double-pole isolation inherent when unplugged, so does not require special provisions for compatibility with supplies of unknown polarity.

I understand this part BTW, I think its the socket design that allows Schuko plugs in table lamps. The ones Ive seen appear to have a guard so the threads can not be touched when energized.

 

[Octopus]

FFS just answer the question as to your location or do the mods need to look at your IP address?

Its not that difficult question is it?

 

[Gardner]

FFS just answer the question as to your location or do the mods need to look at your IP address?

Its not that difficult question is it?

Why does it matter? I am using IEC60364 with electricity obeying the same laws of physics regardless where that job will take place. Location will not answer my questions as to what a code or reg itself requires.

 

[Octopus]

Why does it matter? I am using IEC60364 with electricity obeying the same laws of physics regardless where that job will take place. Location will not answer my questions as to what a code or reg itself requires.

Very simply because when posters with hold facts, you start wondering what the F is going on..... why would concealing your location really matter?

 

[uksparks]

Cape Town.

Sorry, I meant Gardner

 

[davesparks]

Why does it matter? I am using IEC60364 with electricity obeying the same laws of physics regardless where that job will take place. Location will not answer my questions as to what a code or reg itself requires.

But the regulations change according to location,

 

[7029 dave]

UK only, can't comment else where.

 

[Gardner]

Very simply because when posters with hold facts, you start wondering what the F is going on..... why would concealing your location really matter?

No, I think you simply dont know the answer. Sometimes people will shift the subject to avoid what they can not answer. Its either a simple yes or no with a code reference number. I have a good guess what will happen when I give a location: "check the local codes applicable to your country, they will have the answer your looking for" I this scenario its IEC60364 which BS7671 is closely modeled by.


FWIW when others post on forums like Mike Holt's asking about NFPA70 they are given responses around NFPA70 even if their location is Saudi Arabia or Brazil. Often over seas jobs require them asking such questions so no one asks to begin with.

 

[Gardner]

But the regulations change according to location,

Thats not even a valid answer. I know of many instances where foreign codes are applied in another country such as for example NFPA70 in US military installations inside the Middle East. Second many poor countries use the raw IEC60364 with little change. Third its possible to wire any building in the UK with say the German or French regs provided part P can be proven as fulfilled.