ELECSA Certification Scheme A message to all Elecsa registered electricians!! A must read!!

[Danspark]

I have stumbled across another thread where they discuss short courses being available that then enable someone to be become a competent person registered on a DI scheme (i’m going to assume though, for my own sanity, that they have limitations) to enable them to self certify part P. Apparently the IET do not class this person as an electrician (nor do I). I don’t have time to do the research just yet but if this is the case I understand whole heartedly why you would not want to be known as a domestic installer!
This to me would explain why some might refer to these competent persons schemes as “scams”
Be aware that I have never come across these non electrical yet competent people so they have never effected me or my business.
My domestic installer status is something I have never referred to, and my experience with the NICEIC as an approved contractor has done well for me and my company. But, as I have mentioned before, I have had reason to fall out with them, TWICE and both times it cost me money through no fault of my own, I just picked myself up and moved on.
Until I am better informed I withdraw my statement that “Part P was the best thing to happen to the industry” I will re-phrase it. “I made Part P work for me!” and it rhymes!

Dan

ps. Make no mistake though, some of the stuff that some of you have said is nothing more than uneducated here-say. you know who you are!

 

[AP Electrical]

I have stumbled across another thread where they discuss short courses being available that then enable someone to be become a competent person registered on a DI scheme (i’m going to assume though, for my own sanity, that they have limitations) to enable them to self certify part P. Apparently the IET do not class this person as an electrician (nor do I). I don’t have time to do the research just yet but if this is the case I understand whole heartedly why you would not want to be known as a domestic installer!
This to me would explain why some might refer to these competent persons schemes as “scams”
Be aware that I have never come across these non electrical yet competent people so they have never effected me or my business.
My domestic installer status is something I have never referred to, and my experience with the NICEIC as an approved contractor has done well for me and my company. But, as I have mentioned before, I have had reason to fall out with them, TWICE and both times it cost me money through no fault of my own, I just picked myself up and moved on.
Until I am better informed I withdraw my statement that “Part P was the best thing to happen to the industry” I will re-phrase it. “I made Part P work for me!” and it rhymes!

Dan

ps. Make no mistake though, some of the stuff that some of you have said is nothing more than uneducated here-say. you know who you are!

Nothing stopping them going approved contractor either, money talks............

 

[Engineer54]

ps. Make no mistake though, some of the stuff that some of you have said is nothing more than uneducated here-say. you know who you are! ​

​

If your referring to me here, i don't do ''uneducated'' anything, including guesses or take hearsay as gospel!! I'm also not naive either, in that i don't get taken in by any marketing blurb hook, line and sinker, nor do believe everything that's in printed form. I've been around long enough to witness first hand, the tricks, the creative accounting and the misleading statements made in reports/surveys and the like!!


As for your assumption on DI's, NO, there are no legal/official limitations on these under qualified and inexperienced folk, on completing these fast track so called electrical training courses. Your precious NICEIC actually endorses more than one or two of these fast track training centres too!!!

 

[TaffyDuck]

In reply to my earlier letter posted here, I have had a reply from Elecsa which at least is promising..........but we will see at least who is wearing the trousers in this alliance of NIC/ECA

[FONT=&amp]Dear Mr *******,[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]Thank you for your email and my apologies for the delay in responding to your query. We have not reduced your registration status and we apologise that the new ESR website mistakenly gives this impression. This is a point that has been raised by a number of our contractors and we are urgently seeking to a solution to the problem and hope to be able to update the ESR site accordingly in the near future. I will be in touch again as soon as we can to confirm the changes and when they will be implemented.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]Kind regards,[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] [/FONT][FONT=&amp]

[/FONT]

 

[MDJ]

well done bud, you may have a result there, good stuff

 

[ezzzekiel]

ps,
im pretty uneducated

 

[D Skelton]

In reply to my earlier letter posted here, I have had a reply from Elecsa which at least is promising

Just to confirm, I had a similar reply earlier today. Although to their credit, it wasn't a generic copied and pasted reply like their first!

It seems as though we're actually getting somewhere!

Keep the complaints up guys, the more of us that complain, the less they can ignore the issue!

Below is my reply

[FONT=verdana, courier new,courier,tahoma,sans-serif]Dear Mr Skelton,

I can appreciate your depth of feelings on this matter and can assure you that your concerns are being actively listened to and not simply dismissed. I have today sat in a meeting that spent considerable time discussing not only yours but all the feedback we have had from contractors with regards to the new website.

We have discussed a number of solutions but as I said in my original email, I cannot provide a definitive answer as to how the issues you have raised will be resolved or the timelines as to when any changes will be made. You may not believe me when I tell you that it has our highest priority but I hope to be in a position to demonstrate to you that we do not simply 'dump your concerns down the memory hole.'

I will promise to keep you updated of the situation as it progresses.

Kind regards,[/FONT]

*** ***

I shall mull this one over before responding as it seems I may be getting somewhere, even if it is only recognition at this stage.

 

[TaffyDuck]

I shall mull this one over before responding as it seems I may be getting somewhere, even if it is only recognition at this stage.

Indeed. I get the impression that they are at least listening. I have talked in the wholesalers to a number of Elecsa guys today and all of them are prepared to leave if this isn`t sorted.

Stroma was mentioned but my choice would be Napitt as I have 2391 this shouldn`t be a problem.

But I will, at least for now, give them the benefit of the doubt and a few weeks to get it sorted out.

Power to the people as Citizen Smith would have said

 

[ezzzekiel]

i think if a lot (awful lot) of members started swapping scheme providers it would be a good wake up call for the scheme providers.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

ps,
im pretty uneducated

aye....your not far of my level...
so i`v just done one of them courses that you can do.....but its allrite caus i now know all about culurs n all that load of sh1te.....and heres summat else n all.......they were goin on about these things that you have....fu*k knows what they were....but they were like these thingys that went pop and we all had a funny about em.......
well i dont like owt like that so i went and did away with that type of thing caus its stoppin us havin a biff....best way really..hmm...
so....i go and get our terry as he`s just round`t corner and he did a bit for me aunty...well she wanted some wood puttin up so....
well its for the best in`t it.....
caus if they keep doin funny things i`l have to get our terry to come and see to it.....
he knows so its better off.....

 

[Danspark]

im pretty uneducated

at least you have your good looks to fall back on

 

[markc123]

aye....your not far of my level...
so i`v just done one of them courses that you can do.....but its allrite caus i now know all about culurs n all that load of sh1te.....and heres summat else n all.......they were goin on about these things that you have....fu*k knows what they were....but they were like these thingys that went pop and we all had a funny about em.......
well i dont like owt like that so i went and did away with that type of thing caus its stoppin us havin a biff....best way really..hmm...
so....i go and get our terry as he`s just round`t corner and he did a bit for me aunty...well she wanted some wood puttin up so....
well its for the best in`t it.....
caus if they keep doin funny things i`l have to get our terry to come and see to it.....
he knows so its better off.....

Haha...i tried so hard 'not' to like that after the disagreement in the other thread. But that did make me chuckle :heart:

 

[UNG]

Having ploughed through all 172 posts it seems to me that someone has been living in some sort of happy void for the last 7 years and while he may have all the necessary up to date documents to be an NICEIC approved contractor is actually out of touch with what is happening in the wider electrical industry does make me wonder how he stays up to date

The NIC has always manipulated it's approved scheme in the relentless search of income long before the other scam providers came on the scene with it's "Defined Scope Approved Contractor" this disappeared when the DI scheme was introduced

Any statistics produced by NIC or any other scheme can be tailored to provide answers they want to hear by very carefully worded and phrased questions seen this so many times. I wonder how man notified jobs have been carried out by those responding to the survey mentioned against the number notified across the country in the same period

The trouble with all these schemes now they have endorsed the become an electrician quick courses is that there is no return to proper training and qualifications without upsetting a lot of people who are currently deemed competent from the promised land land courses.
Personally I don't believe that Part P has made the impact some think it has and the improvements seen have to be factored against the introduction of the 17th edition which doesn't seem to allow an installation to be acceptable when it complies with an earlier edition of the regs
IMO this is where the inconsistencies are being seen with EICR's full of nonsense due to inexperience and a lack of understanding of the past regs and how installations don't become unsafe overnight because the regs have been updated or revised

The farce that is Part P that demands membership of a scheme or the exorbitant LABC charges to notify work should be scrapped you have perfectly competent industrial sparks who can't do mods to the electrics in their own house or for their family and friends. When I did my 2391 the lecturer said they could take him to court for not notifying bit & pieces he might do and the court could check all his qualifications and tell him whether he was competent or not and whether his work was or was not up to standard

Until this industry has one properly regulated competence register we will continue to debate the pros and cons of what scheme to affiliate to and what a rip off they are and whether we even need them at all

 

[Welchyboy]

I get what your saying glen, the NICEIC has always had 2 schemes the approved contractor and the Domestic installer, they both had different criteria to be accredited, I undertand what your saying and also rattlehead too, honestly, but I'm just saying there is still some merit in the approved contractor and it is different than the DI, it i changing so quickly at the moment I have no Idea how much longer it will have merit, in the olden days it meant something and if you were not in the approved contractor scheme you had no chance of any commercial or industrial works with local authorities or had no chance to get on lists where real works were carried out, today it is getting less and less respect, but there is still a difference and thats all I'm saying, it still takes a bit of knowledge rather than just money to be on the AC scheme, thats my view Glenn

hmm....
well from what i have it.....the `approved contractor` scheme run by the national inspection council used to be a minimum of 2 years opperating as a `DI` (cringe).....a di before you would even be considered for the scheme.....now you can just waltz in.......as long as you have the reddys and a few `jobs` to show em....
i`m sorry Mike....but that don`t cut it to me.....
what that says effectively...is someone who on completion of one of these `be an electrician in 7 weeks` courses.....can (given the `evidence`)....become an NIC approved contractor in no time at all.......and as such can also QS on someone elses work.....
frightful....

Sorry mate but that's utter waffle!, my area engineer picks from my certs list at LEAST 5 jobs per year if we have time maybe another one or two if we are ahead of time, so i cant hand pick my two best jobs of the year, as they are commercial I can't say no -ones home or show him a double socket i added in my nans kitchen like some of the DI schemes, he goes through everything with a toothcomb I can assure you, no 5 day wonder would breeze it, I have been a sparky since an apprenticeship which was 15 years ago now have a jib approved gold card and 2391 blah blah and I still get nervous as hell come inspection time

So let me tell you it ain't no sit down wiv a cup of tea and biscuits mate

But I pay it as it gets me lots of good work and pays for itself many times throughout the year, I never get knocked back to tender for jobs and it's roughly the same cost as the DI schemes

So from a business point of view why would you get registered with schemes no one else has heard of or specifies then sit there moaning why it costs you £400 per year for nothing????

 

[TaffyDuck]

Seems a bit pointless trying to explain AGAIN. If you don`t understand by now you are unlikely to even if I waste more time trying to get the point across.

 

[Welchyboy]

Seems a bit pointless trying to explain AGAIN. If you don`t understand by now you are unlikely to even if I waste more time trying to get the point across.

yeah i get it m8, every things just about the money.....well unfortunatly thats what this worlds about now, sadly its all that matters to most companies especially the like of the NIC etc, it aint just electrical its the police, army and just about every other profession too, its all about quick fix, fast track, instant solutions to problems
that are just storing up problems for the future

BUT the fact is sitting on here wingeing about the sorry state of the electrical industry and looking back to the 60's with rose tinted glasses aint gonna change a single thing

 

[Engineer54]

Until this industry has one properly regulated competence register we will continue to debate the pros and cons of what scheme to affiliate to and what a rip off they are and whether we even need them at all

You don't need a competence register, you NEED a full blown regulated National Register of Qualified Electricians, one with a minimum entry level and with government backed teeth to police the system. And the very last people you want running such a register is the likes of the NICEIC or the other scheme providers.
Preferably it should be based on a non profit sudo-Government run organisation.

You wouldn't then need any of these commercial orientated scheme providers, they can all go back to what they were doing before Part Pee, and that will effectively, be the end of their captive member money spinning venture!! lol!!

 

[Mark P]

Has no one noticed that the Register has had the classifications changed. It's worse! Now instead of being called a Domestic Installer - which sounds more like something you'd do with a cleaner, but at least it is somewhat vague - the wise souls at NIC and Elecsa have bowed to pressure and simply classed everyone as either domestic work or non domestic work. Seems I'd better not let my commercial customers know that I can't work for them anymore.

I have submitted a formal complaint to Elecsa today and I urge any other Elecsa members who feel aggrieved to do the same. Why bother some will say - well the reason is this: the scheme providers are licenced by the Government. As part of their licence they are required to have a complaints procedure and keep a register of complaints made. That information is passed back to the Government dept responsible. The management at Elecsa will not want this as it will make them look inept! Simply go to the Elecsa website click on the link and tell them you wish to make a formal complaint. You will receive a simple form to complete.

It seems Elecsa are trying to call our bluff as their suggestion to me today was that I request that I am removed from the register if I am unhappy. So I have to be penalised further as a result of their mistake. Hmmm. The arrogance of these organisations is unbelievable but it will only get worse as they merge over the next couple of years and one entity is in control of 95% of the market.

I shall be taking legal advice on this and some of you may have access to free legal advice that you could use to do similar. Having a moan on a forum or in the pub or on site is good at harnessing feeling but wont actually change anything. You have to take action.

If Elecsa do not change I shall demand my £440 back from them and I will happily spend £30 taking them to small claims to publicise this debacle.

 

[D Skelton]

Yes I noticed this also.

I'm still in a rather heated email exchange with them but I too have filled out one of their complaints forms!

It seems this is when they actually start to take your complaints seriously!


Apparently, I have the option too of removing myself from the register if I'm unhappy! Why thank you for the privelige Elecsa! When I questioned why it is so easy to remove me and yet reclassifying me as approved is a complicated process, they had little response other than to say that this is the way it is!

I'll post below the email exchanges following on from the last one I posted on here: (I can't post my last reply to Elecsa as I didn't keep a copy of the sent message, I will post it when I get my next reply)

Me:

Dear *** ***,

Thank you for your response, as you can see, I feel very strongly on this matter.

As it stands at this moment in time, the Electrical Safety Register instead of listing me as a 'Domestic Installer' now lists me as only carrying out domestic work. This is even worse than before.

I now want to make it very clear that I wish for my complaints to be taken formally. What this website is doing is nothing short of misrepresentation and will potentially result in financial loss for me and my business. I wish for this misrepresentation to cease with immediate effect.


Kind regards,




Elecsa:

Dear Mr Skelton,

I have forwarded your details to my colleague, Jean Mickle, who will issue the complaints form and procedure for you to formally raise your complaint.

As I have already highlighted, this is an ongoing situation that we are seeking to address and as such I cannot provide assurances as to when it will be resolved. The only immediate course of action that I can recommend to you is that we remove your details from the Electrical Safety Register until such time that you wish to be shown.

Please email me back if this is something that you want to do whilst this is being resolved.

Kind regards,

*** ***



Me:

Dear *** ***,

This is not the course of action I think is best suitable. Either way, I am at a disadvantage whether I am displayed as a domestic installer or whether I don't appear at all.

If I was to remove myself then all I would be doing is absolving you of any liability to rectify the problem. The problem is not with me being included on the register, the problem is with me being classified as a domestic installer.

If you can remove my details from the register with such haste, why can you not re-classify me as an Elecsa approved contractor within the same time frame? You have clearly indicated how easy it is to make a change to this register.

The only solution I believe is to either re-classify me as an Elecsa approved contractor, or take the Whole website down until YOUR problem is rectified. The solution is not to disadvantage me until YOUR problem is rectified.

Kind regards,



Elecsa:

Dear Mr Skelton,

It is a relatively straightforward process for us to completely remove a contractor than it is to amend classifications so unfortunately neither of the actions that you wish to happen are currently within our control to act upon. Once you have raised this as a formal complaint, that process must be allowed to run its course for resolution.

Kind regards,

*** ***

 

[ezzzekiel]

time for everyone to transfer to another (stroma, napit) once numbers start to peak you will notice there change in attitude - but still just the tip of the iceberg