Certifying existing works

[markadams]

Hi,

I was called to a job where the customer asked me to undertake an EICR and Boiler safety check (Yes, I am gas safe registered as well).

When I arrived I found a fairly new boiler and a 17th ed Split load CU (not AMD 3 standard), I questioned why he wanted it all tested as it was all fairly new. I then discovered that neither the Boiler or the Electrical works (which included a new CU and Partial re-wire) had any paperwork and not be registered with building control.

How should I proceed with the electrics to make this legal and notified? Can I undertake an EICR and if correct then register it myself? I am not too happy about this as I have no way of assessing buried cable runs etc.

 

[Pete999]

Any clues to who changed the CU? or was it a cash job no certs?

 

[markadams]

From what I can work out, he was having the house refurbed and a relative was asked to manage the works, the relative asked a friend who I understand is a spark but did this as a cheap cash in hand job so I guess he didn't want the paper trail.

I would add that from a visual inspection the works seem to be done to a good standard.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Hi Mark.
I would conduct an EICR but I certainly wouldn't be notifying it as you are then taking responsibility for it and like you said you have no way of knowing exactly how the electrical installation was carried out.
If the client isn't happy with this then I would most definitely decline the job. I realise that's lost income but these things (in my experience) don't come along too often so it's not too much to lose out on 1 or 2 EICRs a year to keep your morals

 

[The Ghost]

As long as you are able to do third party certs. Building control will be automatically notified and a compliance notice will be issued to the client on you lodging said certs. no? Obviously you would be very careful on checking the electrical installation. But as third party signer with your scheme I do not see any cause for concern...or is there?

 

[markadams]

Hi Mark.
I would conduct an EICR but I certainly wouldn't be notifying it as you are then taking responsibility for it and like you said you have no way of knowing exactly how the electrical installation was carried out.
If the client isn't happy with this then I would most definitely decline the job. I realise that's lost income but these things (in my experience) don't come along too often so it's not too much to lose out on 1 or 2 EICRs a year to keep your morals

I agree with you, I have never come across this before and thought that a process may be in place for this type of situation. The customer discovered that the works had not been notified as he is now selling the property and the solicitor could not find records of the recent works. He needs to find a way to make this legal.

Oddly when I called Gas Safe I was told to commission the boiler and register it as my own. Surprised that a system is not in place to do a similar thing but have limited liability.

 

[rolyberkin]

Third party certification should involve design, installation and testing, the poster has not been involved in the design of installation so cannot say if the installation methods are safe or comply with regs. This really should be subject of a regularization of works notificastion to the local council building control. The reason why the customer is trying to get away with doing it this way is it is probably cheaper.

Speak to the local building control and see what they say, personally I don't certify other peoples work.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I agree with you, I have never come across this before and thought that a process may be in place for this type of situation. The customer discovered that the works had not been notified as he is now selling the property and the solicitor could not find records of the recent works. He needs to find a way to make this legal.

Oddly when I called Gas Safe I was told to commission the boiler and register it as my own. Surprised that a system is not in place to do a similar thing but have limited liability.

You're quite right, there is no system in place for installations that have completed electrical work and the installer/designer does not sign it off. There are third party schemes were someone else is able to sign off the work but they would have to have assessed the work at the beginning and throughout so that they know what they are signing for.

It's up to you what you do Mark. You could easily notify it and make some easy money. We all come across these situations at times. I've always said 'no' as I would be signing to say the installation is safe and that would play on my mind for many years so it's just not worth it for me.

Let us all know on this open forum if you do decide to notify it

 

[Octopus]

The more us decent sparks help out the chancers, the more they will do... I always decline to quote....

 

[markadams]

You're quite right, there is no system in place for installations that have completed electrical work and the installer/designer does not sign it off. There are third party schemes were someone else is able to sign off the work but they would have to have assessed the work at the beginning and throughout so that they know what they are signing for.

It's up to you what you do Mark. You could easily notify it and make some easy money. We all come across these situations at times. I've always said 'no' as I would be signing to say the installation is safe and that would play on my mind for many years so it's just not worth it for me.

Let us all know on this open forum if you do decide to notify it

This is not about the money, I just wanted to try and help the customer out as he was not aware of the situation until recently and is now in a situation where the sale of the property cant proceed.

I will speak with the customer and let them know that I will conduct an EICR but would not be able to notifiable it.

Thanks for the advice/opinions.

 

[Jay Sparks]

The customer could explain to the LABC that an electrician did the CU change but did not register it or leave any certs. They will then probably ask the him to get an EICR done and send it in so it can be notified.

Jay

 

[Midwest]

This really should be subject of a regularization of works notificastion to the local council building control. The reason why the customer is trying to get away with doing it this way is it is probably cheaper.

Speak to the local building control and see what they say, personally I don't certify other peoples work.

Agree with roly, the sensible process is for your client to apply for a 'Regularisation Certificate' for retrospective application for unauthorised works. Doing an EICR, still leaves them with the problem of the notification process with the lbc, something that may hold up the process of selling the property. Your client could be advised by their solicitor, to take out an indemnity insurance (normally the purchaser of the property), which insures the purchaser against retrospective approval, should the lbc find out!

Your client should speak to their lbc, explain what's occurred, be advised by them on the way forward. Your EICR may then be approved by the lbc, as part of the Regularisation Certificate.

My lbc currently charge £614 for a regularisation certificate.

 

[HandySparks]

I've done EICRs in similar situations three times now. Always on electrical work done as part of other building work. The LA building control seem to accept a satisfactory EICR in this sort of situation. And, because it's not a 'certificate', you're not 'taking responsibility' for the work, just providing a professional opinion on the work as far as you can inspect and test it.

A couple of times it has lead to some remedial work before issuing the 'satisfactory' report. One was reverse polarity on a lighting circuit. The other was a missing gas bond.

Someone selling a house will be pretty keen for you to do any remedials required asap!

 

[The Ghost]

I must say the third party certification is a bit muddled in use as above. I think you are talking about an EIC as third party notification. The OP has been asked to do an EICR which is different to third party notification. I mean you would be quite happy to walk into virtually any installation and do an EICR on it, why not this one??? Do you suspect some black arts at play in the installation methods that hitherto have not been encountered on previous EICRs?

 

[HandySparks]

I must say the third party certification is a bit muddled in use as above. I think you are talking about an EIC as third party notification. The OP has been asked to do an EICR which is different to third party notification. I mean you would be quite happy to walk into virtually any installation and do an EICR on it, why not this one??? Do you suspect some black arts at play in the installation methods that hitherto have not been encountered on previous EICRs?

Who are you replying to?

 

[Midwest]

Whatever floats the boat for the Local Building Control, EICR, Regularisation Certificate or back of a smoke packet. Once solicitors get involved, as the OP has mentioned, they won't be happy till the LBC are happy.

As you'll know, every time a solicitor picks up the phone, sends an email or writes a letter it costs money.

A friend of mine split with his partner. His solicitor wanted to send a valuation of their house to his partners solicitor. She had had a valuation done, previously. She had to email the valuation to his solicitor, who then had to email it to her solicitor, who then had to send back to her, so she could agree the valuation!

Nice way to earn money

 

[The Ghost]

replying to

OP Roly and Hippy

 

[rolyberkin]

There is a massive difference between regularization and an EICR, the key is not what you decide is safe, it is what is acceptable to the nominated building control officer for the relevant area. If they say an EICR is acceptable then it is, if not then it isn't. My guess having dealt with a few BCO's is that the minimum they will say is it will now have to be an Amendment 3 consumer unit and all works will have to comply with 3rd Amendment, if it is to be regularized now it surely has to be to current standards. If they didn't enforce it is setting a poor precedent. I wouldn't be notifying old work on the back of an EICR.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I would conduct the EICR.
Make good any defects (if necessary) as agreed with the client, to produce a 'Satisfactory' report.
Then let the client deal with Building Control with regards to notification/regularisation.

 

[Midwest]

To clarify.

It would appear that the OP's client has had notifiable work carried out (a fairly recent CU installation), without it seems a suitable certificate and 'Building Regulations Certificate of Compliance'. The customer is now in the process of selling the property and one assumes has had a survey carried out. It appears that the recent CU installation is noted in the survey. The client solicitor has asked for the appropriate documentation, which the client does not have. Eventually, this issue might be picked by the purchasers solicitor, it might not.

The client has asked the OP to effectively resolve the issue highlighted above. The OP has queried, if he could notify the install to LBC after carrying out an EICR, I think we agree, he cannot.

It would appear the issue is not with the standard or safety of the install, but the fact that the client does not have a 'Building Regulations Certificate of Compliance' to produce to his/her solicitor to satisfy, that part of the process for the conveyancing of the property.

The client is seeking professional advice to rectify this issue, he/she should be in no doubt that an ECIR will not resolve the main issue. Otherwise the OP's reputation may be bought into question.

I note the OP is from Wales, I'm not familiar with these processes in Wales.

In my opinion.

Edit; not saying an EICR would not be deemed acceptable by a LBC, it should just be made clear to the client that the OP cannot notify the works.