Change in the Law regarding RCDs in Rental Properties

[Geoffsd]

The law states that a landlord has a duty of care to ensure that the electrical installation is safe. - This is a blanket reg any noone knows what the have to do - nor do the EHPs
If not complying with 7671 or equivalent it can be deemed unsafe.

I do not object to a law requiring EICRs to be introduced although you started the thread by requiring RCDs to be fitted. This would require CU changes and would not happen. -The problem with the older CUs is that most of them dont have bonding in place.
Yes they do.
An RCD is not notifiable therefore dos not require an electrician
I would say it was. Where in schedule 4 does it allow this.
even though an electrician would be a way better option (I dont agree with landords doing their own work but it happens). A CU change costs £300 - £450 - thats 1 months rent!
Agree.
Also, the figures you quote are hugely more than any I have previously read since Part P was first suggested. - I made a mistake in the OP - it was corrected later on in the thread
Ok.
However, the situation would arise, as is now the case where letting agents demand an electrical report, disreputable landlords will hire disreputable electricians who will walk round and then sign a piece of paper for fifty pounds. - Agents or LAs cant demand EICRs they can only request them - if they demand one then the landlord (at present) will have a case against them in court - recent case about this in NewPort Gwent - LA lost!
Perhaps but I had heard some letting agents won't handle the property without.
Laws are not to protect landlords. - If there where not laws then more people will be killed - Landlords think they are a pain but they do protect them!
No they don't.
All of them have appliances. Cooker, boiler, fires, even if unfurnished. - Gas appliances are inspected with the gas safety cert - like I said before if the property has a RCD installed then even if the appliance goes faulty the RCD will protect it
It may but that is no excuse for faulty appliances.
I'm surprised you think this a reasonable argument.
Furnished properties have the same number as you do.

You did not seem to grasp my point about the Gas Safety Check being an appliance check. -I fully understand this
It does not have the same number of tests and measurements and disruption that an EICR would. -Electric is more complicated than gas - more of a reason to have it tested more often!.
I repeat. I would not be against an EICR requirement becoming law but that was not the original proposal.

Well, yes it does matter. - As below

An RCD is only addition protection for the electrical installation. - RCD is additional protection but it is also the only device that will stop an electric shock and fire starting! Bonding does not do this!
RCDs will not prevent fires. Why have you brought up bonding? - but it is to prevent shock.

Surely, you are not suggesting that faulty appliances would be acceptable as long as an RCD was present. - Faulty appliances would not allow the RCD to stay connected - it would keep triping - insulation goes on appliance then the RCD will trip!
So would the fuse or mcb.

RCDs are not infallible. They are not a magic solution to all our problems. - RCDs are only problematic when you have a faulty installation. A good installation wont trip the RCD! If the RCD trips then your losing the current to something else or earth - RCD is doing its job 100%
RCDs are problematic when they fail.

That would be to judge if others thought it important.
Perhaps they got told to bury it by larger landlords than your Grandfather. - They never approached parliament about it - their biggest problem was they put it in the papers and that was it -no reasons behind it!
Perhaps I was correct, then.

I cannot argue that point but I do not think the LA 'check up'.
More likely just prosecute when the occasion arises. - Classic example of who does this protect - the landlord - landlord did their job - LA failed - whos to blame - LA. This is all down to training of LA

RCDs will help should a person touch a live conductor BUT RCDs do not recognise overcurrent so are unlikely to help against fires.
The fuse/MCB will do this. - RCDs do look for overcurrent!No they don't.
(not designed to but they do) - 63A - 30mA .Fundamental misunderstanding there.
They are looking for both!No they don't.
If a fire starts, a short to earth normally happens when the MCB does not trip - to high of resistance - the RCD will pick this up! Like you said the MCB is in charge of overcurrent - but clearly over-current is not the main cause of fire - or there would not be fires from electrical.Not exactly sure what that means but I suspect more fundamental misunderstandings.

Is this a misunderstanding leading you to believe that fuses are not as safe as MCBs.
I note you did not respond to my query regarding BS3036s. - Big problem with BS3036 - fuse cable can be replaced with 2.5 cable - this will not blow! - meaning they have the potential to be very dangerous!
You cannot, nor should you, legislate against stupidity.

Perhaps, but if it became apparent that large numbers of people who rented were being injured by faulty electricals something would soon be done. I would think that the hospital staff DO care - that's what they DO do.
- I used to work for Welsh Ambulance Service until I bust my back - they dont care where the person comes from - their priority is to care about the person not their house!
There will be paperwork after the 'carers' have done their part.
Only way to look at how many are in rentals is to look at how many landlords are jailed!
Now you're being silly.

I'll let you have the last word.

 

[Spazz]

The law states that a landlord has a duty of care to ensure that the electrical installation is safe. - This is a blanket reg any noone knows what the have to do - nor do the EHPs
If not complying with 7671 or equivalent it can be deemed unsafe
Not everyone has EICRs - there are so many different ideas of a safe system - I do agree the only way to know if safe is to test it - but this cant be enforced

I do not object to a law requiring EICRs to be introduced although you started the thread by requiring RCDs to be fitted. This would require CU changes and would not happen. -The problem with the older CUs is that most of them dont have bonding in place.
Yes they do.
Everyone I come across didn't
An RCD is not notifiable therefore dos not require an electrician
I would say it was. Where in schedule 4 does it allow this
NAPIT say its not
even though an electrician would be a way better option (I dont agree with landords doing their own work but it happens). A CU change costs £300 - £450 - thats 1 months rent!
Agree.
Also, the figures you quote are hugely more than any I have previously read since Part P was first suggested. - I made a mistake in the OP - it was corrected later on in the thread
Ok.
However, the situation would arise, as is now the case where letting agents demand an electrical report, disreputable landlords will hire disreputable electricians who will walk round and then sign a piece of paper for fifty pounds. - Agents or LAs cant demand EICRs they can only request them - if they demand one then the landlord (at present) will have a case against them in court - recent case about this in NewPort Gwent - LA lost!
Perhaps but I had heard some letting agents won't handle the property without.
That is a personal choice not a legal one - the landlord could have a case against this if they wanted
Laws are not to protect landlords. - If there where not laws then more people will be killed - Landlords think they are a pain but they do protect them!
No they don't.
Yes they do - they are just a pain
All of them have appliances. Cooker, boiler, fires, even if unfurnished. - Gas appliances are inspected with the gas safety cert - like I said before if the property has a RCD installed then even if the appliance goes faulty the RCD will protect it
It may but that is no excuse for faulty appliances.
I'm surprised you think this a reasonable argument.
I dont agree with with faulty items - I am 100% behind PAT testing but as long as those stickers are out there doing it for 30p per item and not testing them I will never stand behind it being law
Furnished properties have the same number as you do.

You did not seem to grasp my point about the Gas Safety Check being an appliance check. -I fully understand this
It does not have the same number of tests and measurements and disruption that an EICR would. -Electric is more complicated than gas - more of a reason to have it tested more often!.
I repeat. I would not be against an EICR requirement becoming law but that was not the original proposal.
Agreed

Well, yes it does matter. - As below

An RCD is only addition protection for the electrical installation. - RCD is additional protection but it is also the only device that will stop an electric shock and fire starting! Bonding does not do this!
RCDs will not prevent fires. Why have you brought up bonding? - but it is to prevent shock.
They do - Fires are also caused by leakage to earth of over 250mA - a MCB wont pick this up.
Bonding I was refuring to shock protection

Surely, you are not suggesting that faulty appliances would be acceptable as long as an RCD was present. - Faulty appliances would not allow the RCD to stay connected - it would keep triping - insulation goes on appliance then the RCD will trip!
So would the fuse or mcb.
Only if a high current passes though - if a N/E fault occurs MCB wont pic it up - same as a small earth leakage - still a faulty item

RCDs are not infallible. They are not a magic solution to all our problems. - RCDs are only problematic when you have a faulty installation. A good installation wont trip the RCD! If the RCD trips then your losing the current to something else or earth - RCD is doing its job 100%
RCDs are problematic when they fail.
Agreed - Time to replace it then!

That would be to judge if others thought it important.
Perhaps they got told to bury it by larger landlords than your Grandfather. - They never approached parliament about it - their biggest problem was they put it in the papers and that was it -no reasons behind it!
Perhaps I was correct, then.

I cannot argue that point but I do not think the LA 'check up'.
More likely just prosecute when the occasion arises. - Classic example of who does this protect - the landlord - landlord did their job - LA failed - whos to blame - LA. This is all down to training of LA

RCDs will help should a person touch a live conductor BUT RCDs do not recognise overcurrent so are unlikely to help against fires.
The fuse/MCB will do this. - RCDs do look for overcurrent! No they don't What is the purpose of the 63A then - they can be used as a main switch - the MCB is mainly responsible for over current - agreed - the RCD can detect very high overcurrent that the MCB should of picked up long before!
(not designed to but they do) - 63A - 30mA .Fundamental misunderstanding there.
They are looking for both!No they don't. - As above
If a fire starts, a short to earth normally happens when the MCB does not trip - to high of resistance - the RCD will pick this up! Like you said the MCB is in charge of overcurrent - but clearly over-current is not the main cause of fire - or there would not be fires from electrical.Not exactly sure what that means but I suspect more fundamental misunderstandings.
MCB - over current - RCD fault protection (as above) check the fire stats website and it states on there that small currents of 250mA will start a fire - also they heavily state RCD for Fire Protection. Also Regs state 300mA RCD for fire protection

Is this a misunderstanding leading you to believe that fuses are not as safe as MCBs.
I note you did not respond to my query regarding BS3036s. - Big problem with BS3036 - fuse cable can be replaced with 2.5 cable - this will not blow! - meaning they have the potential to be very dangerous!
You cannot, nor should you, legislate against stupidity.
Stupidity is what kills more people


Perhaps, but if it became apparent that large numbers of people who rented were being injured by faulty electricals something would soon be done. I would think that the hospital staff DO care - that's what they DO do.
- I used to work for Welsh Ambulance Service until I bust my back - they dont care where the person comes from - their priority is to care about the person not their house!
There will be paperwork after the 'carers' have done their part.
Only way to look at how many are in rentals is to look at how many landlords are jailed!
Now you're being silly.

I'll let you have the last word.

Either way we both agree RCDs should be in all properties dont we - a law cant be passed in this effect but it can be passed for rental properties!
Some Landlords only care about getting their rent in - check the other posts - if you say different you obeserly dont work for them or had some very good landlords!

Either way we both agree on the 2 issues:
RCDs should be installed!
EICRs should be done!

If you dont like it dont comment on it!

 

[IQ Electrical]

There are far too many technical and statistical inaccuracies in the 'proposal' I'm fully in favour of a mandatory 5-yearly EICR but to think that any authority can/will enforce the retro-fitting of RCD protection is just plain naivety.

 

[UNG]

I was going to post a reply to some of the comments made in recent posts until I read post 122

 

[Spazz]

One thing I really dont get:

Everyone on here is for installing RCDs in domestic properties so why is it when a proposal of a change of law regarding having them in all rental properties everyone objects to them.
Most of you are looking at this and saying that the landlord wont do it - he wont have a choice!
Plus honestly if you went into a rental property and they wanted a shower what would you do? - install an RCD at a cost of how much? Instead of putting that RCD outside of the CU (which most do) why not put it inside instead?

We are all pushing for RCDs in all homes as it is so why are some of you against it being mandatory - it will make your life easier.
Plus we are not talking big money here either -these landlords get £400 - £700 per month (depending on the size of the property) they should be putting part of that back in.

Yes RCDs go home, yes they pack up but so does cookers, so do cars - they would not think twice about replacing them would they!

Like has been said endless times - mot of us are sick and tired of landlords/home owners putting their/their children/their tenants safety after their items (cars, etc)

I bet everyone here (who is an electrician) has a RCD in your home and every house you are connected with so why on earth wont you push for having them in every home by law?
Yes I know what you are going to say next - we are not pushing for every home - this is because we cant! Rental Properties are different - they are commercial and domestic at the same time as well as the landlord having someone elses life in their hands - different situation completely - the law can enforce different conditions on them where as they cant on a home owner.

Same can be said with Hotels, Pubs, Child Care facilities, etc, etc, etc.


Im not going to touch on EICRs because from what I see - everyone is for this!
The question is:
1 year and scrap in-between tenants
5 years with visual in-between tenants


In regards to enforcement as has been said - the LA licencing team (when it comes in for rentals) will enforce this and everything else imposed on landlords.
I know the complications which goes with this - but thats on their heads not ours or the landlords

 

[trev]

Nicholas, is your campaign including rented business premises?

 

[Spazz]

that was not the idea - if that comes in the it does.

Im looking at the housing Act 2004. Business Premises do not fall under this law.

Its not something I have thought about to be honest so I am opening that to the floor - I cant see Shock Protection working in all commercial premises because some commercial units produce earth fault current as part of their equipment.

 

[oldtimer]

One thing I really dont get:

Everyone on here is for installing RCDs in domestic properties so why is it when a proposal of a change of law regarding having them in all rental properties everyone objects to them. I agree that a lanlord should have a minimum of RCD cover in the property and yes I upgraded my 3036 board to MCB 2.5mm earth to 6mm then RCD and 10mm earth
Most of you are looking at this and saying that the landlord wont do it - he wont have a choice! I do work for a letting agent and in most cases the landlords are responsable but yes there is a few that see the property as a cash cow and have the rent money spent already. I always advise new landlords to bank 10% of the rental income until they build up a £2 or £3k emergency fund
Plus honestly if you went into a rental property and they wanted a shower what would you do? - install an RCD at a cost of how much? Instead of putting that RCD outside of the CU (which most do) why not put it inside instead? Well this is down to cost and the need for he electrician to work or in other words a fudge ie I can install a shower circuit and RCD for say £200 but you would be better upgrading the CU for say £475 the problem is that some landlords are thinking you are like a tyre company I go in for a puncture repair and come out with 4 new tyres so just tell me what I am obliged to do.

We are all pushing for RCDs in all homes as it is so why are some of you against it being mandatory - it will make your life easier.
Plus we are not talking big money here either -these landlords get £400 - £700 per month (depending on the size of the property) they should be putting part of that back in.Yes we are pushing but must take care we do not push too hard as this switches people off.

Yes RCDs go home, yes they pack up but so does cookers, so do cars - they would not think twice about replacing them would they!As I have said before people have priorities and a new CU is on the bottom of the list as it sits in a cupboard under the stair and "anyway what is the problem its been their for years and how come they are now dangerous I dont see an epademic with people being electricuted" type of comment plus human nature will pay £25k for a car but fight tooth and nail over a £100 electrical repair job.

Like has been said endless times - mot of us are sick and tired of landlords/home owners putting their/their children/their tenants safety after their items (cars, etc)Well yes we are and yes we want to do a good job but we as a trade cannot preach and force our views on people there is a balance to be had in this respect

I bet everyone here (who is an electrician) has a RCD in your home and every house you are connected with so why on earth wont you push for having them in every home by law?
Yes I know what you are going to say next - we are not pushing for every home - this is because we cant! Rental Properties are different - they are commercial and domestic at the same time as well as the landlord having someone elses life in their hands - different situation completely - the law can enforce different conditions on them where as they cant on a home owner.

Same can be said with Hotels, Pubs, Child Care facilities, etc, etc, etc.


Im not going to touch on EICRs because from what I see - everyone is for this!
The question is:
1 year and scrap in-between tenants
5 years with visual in-between tenants I have said this before Visual inspection condition reports are not worth the paper they ar written on and will somebody please show me where in the BGB they are. As for EICR again I have said this before plus have sent the same recommendation to the Scottish Parliment who are reviewing this ie every rental property (exclude HMO) gets a EICR every 5 years with a mini EICR if there is a change of tenant that confirms the RCD if fitted trips within the specified times and that the Zs at ALL socket outlets including cooker is recorded


In regards to enforcement as has been said - the LA licencing team (when it comes in for rentals) will enforce this and everything else imposed on landlords.Sounds good but in reality councils and governments like self regulation because that means they dont haveto take responsability
I know the complications which goes with this - but thats on their heads not ours or the landlords

So yes we need to push but the minute we push too hard thats the time we are accused of feathering our nest at the expense of the customer/landlord or in other words politics

 

[IQ Electrical]

One thing I really dont get:

Everyone on here is for installing RCDs in domestic properties so why is it when a proposal of a change of law regarding having them in all rental properties everyone objects to them.
Most of you are looking at this and saying that the landlord wont do it - he wont have a choice!
Plus honestly if you went into a rental property and they wanted a shower what would you do? - install an RCD at a cost of how much? Instead of putting that RCD outside of the CU (which most do) why not put it inside instead?

We are all pushing for RCDs in all homes as it is so why are some of you against it being mandatory - it will make your life easier.
Plus we are not talking big money here either -these landlords get £400 - £700 per month (depending on the size of the property) they should be putting part of that back in.

Yes RCDs go home, yes they pack up but so does cookers, so do cars - they would not think twice about replacing them would they!

Like has been said endless times - mot of us are sick and tired of landlords/home owners putting their/their children/their tenants safety after their items (cars, etc)

I bet everyone here (who is an electrician) has a RCD in your home and every house you are connected with so why on earth wont you push for having them in every home by law?
Yes I know what you are going to say next - we are not pushing for every home - this is because we cant! Rental Properties are different - they are commercial and domestic at the same time as well as the landlord having someone elses life in their hands - different situation completely - the law can enforce different conditions on them where as they cant on a home owner.

Same can be said with Hotels, Pubs, Child Care facilities, etc, etc, etc.


Im not going to touch on EICRs because from what I see - everyone is for this!
The question is:
1 year and scrap in-between tenants
5 years with visual in-between tenants


In regards to enforcement as has been said - the LA licencing team (when it comes in for rentals) will enforce this and everything else imposed on landlords.
I know the complications which goes with this - but thats on their heads not ours or the landlords

Nicholas, look at what you have written above and think about it.
Not one person on this forum objects to the fitting of RCDs in any property be it rented or privately owned-what we are telling you is that proposing a law to enforce the installation of RCDs is an absolute waste of time, it will not happen.

You say you have 'support' from Local Authorities etc. but this is meaningless-they don't have to get this through parliament or find funding for policing and enforcing etc.
Do yourself a favour and put your energy into the mandatory 5-yearly EICR with documented interim visuals, I think we're heading in that direction (albeit slowly) and together with Local Authority landlord licensing schemes, this would seem to be a far more sensible path.

Do you really think that we are all against fitting RCDs in rented properties or do you think that maybe we see things from an installers point of view having seen previous attempts to regulate our industry fail miserably.

 

[Spazz]

I fully agree with the comments above.
A few ideas that I use - just to throw in the mix:

build up a £2 or £3k emergency fund - Fantastic Idea
what I am obliged to do. - I give them an option - RCD for £150-£200 (depending on make) and EICR £20 per circuit (£160 average) or CU change for £325 (was £250) which includes a free EICR. - this gives the idea that they made up their mind and no pressure from us

Yes we are pushing but must take care we do not push too hard as this switches people off. - Fully agree - hence what I said above - give them the control

As I have said before people have priorities and a new CU is on the bottom of the list as it sits in a cupboard under the stair and "anyway what is the problem its been their for years and how come they are now dangerous I dont see an epademic with people being electricuted" type of comment plus human nature will pay £25k for a car but fight tooth and nail over a £100 electrical repair job. -Fully Agree 100%

Well yes we are and yes we want to do a good job but we as a trade cannot preach and force our views on people there is a balance to be had in this respect - Again fully agree 100%

Visual Inspections - I fully agree with this - this is exactly the same as I said to Anglesey CC when they brought it up - I explained that 90% of the install is normally behind walls which is impossible to see.

Sounds good but in reality councils and governments like self regulation because that means they dont haveto take responsibility - Licencing is in effect in Scotland at the moment - and the Welsh government is looking at bringing this in before Christmas in Wales! - cant comment on England sorry!


So yes we need to push but the minute we push too hard thats the time we are accused of feathering our nest at the expense of the customer/landlord or in other words politics
If this becomes law then we wont have to push it at all - it will be you have to have it end of! - and not us saying it

 

[Spazz]

There is alot of objection about putting this into Law - as I said we are all for installing them

I am doing them both as a package and the pros and cons of both - so its up to parliament which one (if not both) they take on.
I cant run the EICR on my own as ESC put the initial idea forward - but I can run the RCD with the EICR as a 2nd option.

I have to be careful on how I do it - I am not focusing on the EICR on here because everyone has said that yes 100% we are behind it - the question is 1 year or 5 years?
I am going to create an additional thread about EICRs and I want nothing mentioned about RCDs on there please

 

[flake]

Great discussion buddy, all the participants expose their ideas very well and all that information is worthy and exactly that which I am looking for. So its my goodness that I checked to this thread.

 

[sparc]

This was posted on RatedPeople today (8 June). The stated budget was less than £100 ....

"I need an electrician to test the electrics and carry out the bare minimum work if any required to issue us with a safety/ landlord certificate. This needs to be done very urgently. Please only respond if you are available over Saturday the 9th of June 2012 or Sunday the 10th of June 2012 as it cannot be left any later than that. Thank you"

 

[trev]

This was posted on RatedPeople today (8 June). The stated budget was less than £100 ....

"I need an electrician to test the electrics and carry out the bare minimum work if any required to issue us with a safety/ landlord certificate. This needs to be done very urgently. Please only respond if you are available over Saturday the 9th of June 2012 or Sunday the 10th of June 2012 as it cannot be left any later than that. Thank you"

And they think they'll get a thorough I&T plus any remeds for that...good luck

 

[oldtimer]

This was posted on RatedPeople today (8 June). The stated budget was less than £100 ....

"I need an electrician to test the electrics and carry out the bare minimum work if any required to issue us with a safety/ landlord certificate. This needs to be done very urgently. Please only respond if you are available over Saturday the 9th of June 2012 or Sunday the 10th of June 2012 as it cannot be left any later than that. Thank you"

And of course a satisfactory will be the outcome deary dear

 

[Spazz]

I wonder if they got any responses with that post.

Out of interest how is rated people working for you? do you get much from it? also are you in town or countryside?

 

[sparc]

I intend to ask ... if they'll tell me. I'm curious to know if they feel any sense of responsibility.

Since the revamp - I think it was at end of last year or early this year - RP has been tons better. I'm getting 4-5 reasonable leads from RP some weeks. Some jobs have turned into repeat business. I'm on edge of Reading, but in country, so about 30% of all jobs I do are 'town', the rest definitely 'country' - with most of new business coming via ads in very local papers/newsletters, etc. How about you?

 

[Spazz]

I was working for 2 agents till I told them to take a run and jump for not paying up (most upto 2 month late)
All the properties I saw (over 100 in total) where in small Welsh towns - no RCD in any of them, some without bonding, showers without RCDs, need I go on?

All these I put in recommendations to get the electrical install sorted and none of them took it up apart from the odd one here and there. The rest where on crisis mode - something go wrong then fix it and not before!

Even thought the ones I have done in the country side have been fantastic - landlord more than happy to do anything you say within reason - RCDs in every property and everything up to scratch!

I find the town landlords are the worst by far!

 

[sparc]

Holiday lets are similar.

I drive my wife and family mad by insisting on taking a quickish peek at electrics of the holiday cottages we get on South Coast. (Not so sad as to take tools and meter on hols - yet!)

Last one we stayed at in Dorset was beautiful accommodation - really well set up, nicely furnished, everything. But electrics were pretty awful. No RCD, no bonding (at all!) and some dodgy accessories. The flat had a big information guide with all local amenities listed, plus lots of info on the property - gas cert, But no EIC. I politely asked the agents about that after the hol didn't get a reply.

 

[somersetsparks]

I was working for 2 agents till I told them to take a run and jump for not paying up (most upto 2 month late)
All the properties I saw (over 100 in total) where in small Welsh towns - no RCD in any of them, some without bonding, showers without RCDs, need I go on?

All these I put in recommendations to get the electrical install sorted and none of them took it up apart from the odd one here and there. The rest where on crisis mode - something go wrong then fix it and not before!

Even thought the ones I have done in the country side have been fantastic - landlord more than happy to do anything you say within reason - RCDs in every property and everything up to scratch!

I find the town landlords are the worst by far!

What is really wrong with no RCD on shower though providing EEBADS is met and supplementary bonding is in place?
I find the whole RCD thing a bit OTT really, I mean come on a law?
Loose and broken accesories -VERY BAD
No bonding - BAD
No supplementary bonding - Pretty Ba
No RCD - MINOR.

An EICR should be compulsory every 10 years or change of tennants in rental properties,
The last thing this country needs is some namby pamby over the top 'RCDs in rental properties act 2012' bought in under the pathetic pretence of 'even if it saves just one life'

Don't mean to offend, just my views