Cut-throat Competition: The Race To The Bottom

[Toneyz]

Makes you wonder how they get through the assessment for these screams ? .

Don't think anyone cares anymore

 

[Paul228]

Yes...another scheme you must join to get on site.
I have CSCS card and a safe pass to get me on site.
Why do I need to join yet another "club"
Apols for the sarcastic tone but I'm smirking inwardly.
I was in Dublin last week, hoping to start on a contract I'd been pricing for months. Got their and all ready to go, card, paperwork etc in place, then on the 11th hour was told I had to achieve an Irish safe site pass in order to go on site. So £200 later and having sat a one day cause on basic site safety, learnineverg how to suck an egg etc I passed.
So can I now start, no..
Had to join the union... but had to join it for three different trades ( it's like the UK was back in the 70s).
So back on point, yes I know what a gold card is....it's to get into Willy wonkers chocolate factory and nothing to do with competency or ability in any specific trade.

 

[Anthony S]

Makes no odds to me with your chocolate factory theory, it aided me for the past 30 odd years when JIB cards are needed to get on certain jobs and in years to come (won't affect me) its will the be norm for a lot of companies and employers only taking on JIB registered. That won't affect the self employed domestic people, but they will be over subscribed with semi skilled and cheap labour and trapped in the race to the bottom.

 

[drzsta]

The trade is a joke, I wonder how many of these Electrical Trainee are taking home the £35k they were promised when they lashed out 3k on their "quals".

 

[The Ghost]

I was approached on a job by a spanish guy, young. He told me he is an electrician and would I help him. His English was very limited. Anyhoo I agreed to attend a re-wire with him. He just said to customer I will re-wire customer says ok. I said you need to check out the installation first and work out what needs doing. Anyway the long and the short of it is he charges £100 for a CU change. I can't compete with that. No certificate, no testing and no BC notice, just change the box get the cash bye bye. Pffff!

 

[Paul228]

I was approached on a job by a spanish guy, young. He told me he is an electrician and would I help him. His English was very limited. Anyhoo I agreed to attend a re-wire with him. He just said to customer I will re-wire customer says ok. I said you need to check out the installation first and work out what needs doing. Anyway the long and the short of it is he charges £100 for a CU change. I can't compete with that. No certificate, no testing and no BC notice, just change the box get the cash bye bye. Pffff!

I've come across this dodgy Spanish sparky before, was he called Juan Kerr.

 

[The Ghost]

Juan Kerr

Nay, this is Bristol. But for all I know it might be he gave me a name but...
EDIT: Damn just got it

 

[The Ghost]

The thing is I can't see someone who changes career being able to come into something like the last job I did. Anyone on site had better "know their onions" or they simply would not be able to last a day on site. The site supervisor and principal contractor are all over you ensuring compliance and good technique and so on. You can't just wing it with a five week course...could you...nahhh!

 

[Paul228]

I think you missed my subtle joke.
Juan Kerr...
( pronounced wan Ker)

 

[The Ghost]

missed my subtle joke

I think you missed my subtle edit

 

[Paul228]

Just seen it mate.
Us sparkies are like those early energy saving bulbs....slow to brighten up hehe.

 

[Midwest]

Middy I see where you are coming from, and in some respects agree with you, but look at the number of, as you called them 5 week Sparks who have joined a scam, and the scam are willing to take their money, and yet some of these guys have, as I mentioned earlier a couple of worthless courses and are "qualified" you are always going to get the DIY Chancers, trying to save a few Bucks, imo the scams have a lot to answer for in recognising poorly trained Electricians, or DIs as they are called these days.

I think what blows you out of the water Pete, if you don't mind me saying, is someone like Sparkychick. Of course never seen any of her work, but could only comment on her integrity and the way she seems to project herself, as an example that such people can & would do a good and proper job. Granted, they have not done a 5 year apprenticeship, but the desire to do good and proper job, can't be denied.

There was a recent thread, of a young chap, be given an apprenticeship. Should be the A1 route, but sadly, in current times, some people have to fund it themselves.

 

[SparkyChick]

The price war race to the bottom affects all sorts of people. I have it on good authority, several people in various trades, that my pricing is about right for the area and I have no plans on being the cheapest because it just doesn't make business sense for anyone. I've actually increased my prices since starting because I wasn't making enough money to cover the slack periods and there has been no noticeable affect on the volume of business I'm doing.

And now I'm probably going to ruffle a few feathers, but so be it. The issue of short courses.

I did a short course and I have mixed feelings about it. Is it the ideal way to enter this trade? Not really. Would I prefer to have gone the apprenticeship route? Absolutely, but my work/life situation simply would not have allowed it, I'm not going to go into to much detail about it, but suffice to say 3 days in an office in Leicestershire, 300 mile a week driving back and forth Wales and variable work commitments that saw me travelling an awful lot (sometimes with only a few hours notice and sometimes for weeks at a time). By the time I made the decision to change career, the working arrangements had already cost me thousands on an OU maths degree that I failed because I couldn't get enough study time together due to work.

The short course is not where I want to leave my learning, but now I'm in a position to say "actually, I'm going to take myself off to college one day a week and get 2365 level 2" because I'm the boss and because I can, I'm currently looking into courses in the local area with a view to starting in September

However the electrical courses I took were not my first real encounter with electrical work. I did my first electrical job (small as it maybe) when I was about 7 years old (to put it into perspective and to save anyone from asking, that's over 30 years ago), putting plugs on for my Grandma (when we still had red, black and green insulation). Somewhere around the same time I got my own soldering iron so I wouldn't need to 'borrow' my Dads (he still to this day reminds me I need to return any tools I borrow promptly) or my Uncles (he was a international service engineer, so his iron had 3 banana plugs instead of a 13A plug which is where I got my first shock, unplugging it without turning it off). Since then I've been involved in all sorts of work for family, friends (partial rewires, new consumer units, new circuits - and no I didn't do anything that was notifiable once Part P came into force) and as part of various jobs in IT and research and development and just because I could and my employers knew it so they saved money by tasking me to do things. This side of it has include installing power supplies for IT gear, networking, diagnosing and fixing building system faults, CCTV, burglar alarms and designing and building cash handling and ticketing machines from component level (microcontroller based custom electronics, wiring looms etc.) right up to post supply field servicing and upgrades of said machines.

I know my limits and wouldn't dream of stepping outside them without help or the supervision of a more experienced spark, so I do get a little irritated (sometimes very) when all short coursers are tarred with the same brush, we are not all equal. But at the same time I understand the concerns you guys raise about some people who go that route. And to be brutally honest, there were people on the course with me I wouldn't let near a plug top let alone a consumer unit.

Part of the problem is they don't teach the basics (electrical stuff aside), like how to notch a joist (just where you should notch it), how to use power tools, what a spirit level is or anything like that. I'm pretty certain if you asked some of the guys on my course how to sink a back box into the wall, they'd have just looked at you funny and wondered WTF you were saying. I'm fairly confident in my ability to do mechanical and building type work because I spent a lot of my time with my Dad, he taught me the basics of carpentry, building, plumbing, mechanical engineering and car maintenance so I wouldn't get ripped off by unscrupulous blokes who think they can take women for a ride when it comes to such things and to be frank, the variety of skills and tasks I feel comfortable undertaking has shocked many a male colleague over the years. Most guys I know wouldn't even think about having a go at problems with their cars for example but I have no qualms taking an angle grinder and MIG welder to mine if I have to, normally it just involves a socket set and a torque wrench, but you get the picture.

Am I happy with the work I've done thus far? Yes because it's all checked out great from a testing perspective, where it's been addressing poor installation work it's ended up being safer than it was and the customers have all been happy, and no because I think I could have done some things better. But I have a lot to learn and I'm not afraid to admit it, which is why from time to time I'll ask questions of you guys and I'm very grateful for the advice I receive.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is... give us a chance we aren't all the same. I've seen enough garbage work done by apparently seasoned professionals to know it's not all about your route into the trade, the qualifications you have or the badge of your scheme. It's also about your work ethic and the direction your moral compass is pointing.

And so you can see I'm not a cowgirl who makes a mess of things (except maybe some of the plasterboard in these pics), here's a few pics from the kitchen rewire I did a few weeks back. Builder's happy, customer's happy and second fix is coming soon

P.S. I'm open to constructive criticism from the pics, just be gentle with me. The protective bonding conductor seemingly just hanging out is gone, replaced because it wasn't long enough at either end, the photo was taken before it got cut back and the empty back boxes were old and have all been removed.

 

[Pete999]

I think what blows you out of the water Pete, if you don't mind me saying, is someone like Sparkychick. Of course never seen any of her work, but could only comment on her integrity and the way she seems to project herself, as an example that such people can & would do a good and proper job. Granted, they have not done a 5 year apprenticeship, but the desire to do good and proper job, can't be denied.

There was a recent thread, of a young chap, be given an apprenticeship. Should be the A1 route, but sadly, in current times, some people have to fund it themselves.

I think what blows you out of the water Pete, if you don't mind me saying, is someone like Sparkychick. Of course never seen any of her work, but could only comment on her integrity and the way she seems to project herself, as an example that such people can & would do a good and proper job. Granted, they have not done a 5 year apprenticeship, but the desire to do good and proper job, can't be denied.

There was a recent thread, of a young chap, be given an apprenticeship. Should be the A1 route, but sadly, in current times, some people have to fund it themselves.

It's not the "Sparkychicks" of the world I was referring to, there are many on this Forum who have had to take this route, who are becoming, or have become good Sparks, I personally don't like the short course route, but then I'm a Mature Electrician as someone called me a while back, and find the short courses alien. I should have made my comments clearer, no, I was aiming my ire to the Jack the Lad type who post a 1 liner "how do I do this or that, thanks" not the Guys and Gals who have proven themselves worthy of the title Electrician, if you have ever checked the information on some of the profiles perhaps you will understand my concerns, an example: what electrical qualifications do you hold :Enough, All of them, are two examples that come to mind.

 

[Biggledyboo]

From another recent post on here. On any lead sites....you do get guys going in at screamingly low prices. You CANNOT compete with that.

Put a domestic job on Mybuilder once - 'Need 2 sockets adding in bedroom' - Lowest price came in at £65. That guy doesn't know the state of the current installation or where exactly I want the sockets. Just that I want them in a bedroom.

For all he knew it could have been wired up in VRI

He wrote the quote in the message. Then added at the bottom 'Will perform a series of safety tests afterwards.'

So, for adding two unknown sockets to an unknown installation. Then performing a series of safety tests. (Most likely a martindale plug in!) all for the great price of £65.

A potential customer will get that quote and think GREAT! Especially with the 'peace of mind' safety test at the end.

Gives them a false sense of pricing for electrical work.

That for me, was when I stopped using Mybuilder.

 

[Pete999]

From another recent post on here. On any lead sites....you do get guys going in at screamingly low prices. You CANNOT compete with that.

Put a domestic job on Mybuilder once - 'Need 2 sockets adding in bedroom' - Lowest price came in at £65. That guy doesn't know the state of the current installation or where exactly I want the sockets. Just that I want them in a bedroom.

For all he knew it could have been wired up in VRI

He wrote the quote in the message. Then added at the bottom 'Will perform a series of safety tests afterwards.'

So, for adding two unknown sockets to an unknown installation. Then performing a series of safety tests. (Most likely a martindale plug in!) all for the great price of £65.

A potential customer will get that quote and think GREAT! Especially with the 'peace of mind' safety test at the end.

Gives them a false sense of pricing for electrical work.

That for me, was when I stopped using Mybuilder.

Re my previous post "I rest my case"

 

[buzzlightyear]

any body quotes or estimates for a job and do not get it, don't dwell on it move on.
I do, for those who under cut other sparks they are not worth the salt.

 

[SparkyChick]

I've just had a quote accepted for some minor works outside (replacing failed PIR and adding a new one). Client came back and said my time estimates were a bit high. I said in the quote that they were cautious estimates (2 hours for the replacement because I'm totally expecting to have to run a new cable segment to the PIR because there's probably only an inch sticking out the wall and 3 for the addition because it's an unknown quantity that involves modifying the existing lighting circuit) that included an appropriate level of testing and that if it took an hour, they would be billed accordingly.

When he phoned to accept the quote, he pointed out that the last time he had the PIR changed, the chap was there for 15 minutes and it cost him £30. So, doing the maths, that's £120 an hour and you can bet it included no testing what so ever in those 15 minutes apart from maybe a bit of functional testing (bit hard functionally testing a PIR with a daylight sensor in daylight don't you think?).

It obviously hasn't computed in his head the disparity in charging rates (£30 for 15 minutes vs. £35 for 60 minutes) and I'm pretty certain he has no idea about the need for a building control notification for the additional PIR because it's outside. And of course he has no idea of the post install follow up I provide when ever I fit a PIR device (like going back when it gets dark to tweak it and then another visit if they're not happy with setup).

But here I am, a customer I'd like to keep because he has a big list of other works he wants doing and already I feel like I'm on the back foot because I'm being compared to someone who thinks it's OK to charge £30 for 15 minutes work and provide absolutely no testing what so ever. And other things he said makes me feel it might end up being a time and motion study to establish whether I'm wasting time in order to rip him off and well as we all know, rushing on jobs is a recipe for disaster or a trip to A+E or worse.

I think one of the big problems is a complete lack of understanding about what's involved right down to an understanding of the building regulations and the legal obligations they impose. It's the same thing that causes DIY disasters, the little things like checking you've tightened up all your terminations, particularly in a CU. It all takes time but it's that time the cowboys (and girls) don't spend that makes it difficult for those of us with a properly functioning moral compass to compete.

I'm sure I'm not alone, but it's the thought of how I'd feel if I didn't do a good job and something terrible happened. I don't think I could live with myself and it's scary. That's what drives me to make sure everything I do is just so. If I miss out on work because someone is not willing to pay for that care and attention to detail, then I want no part in working on their installation because it's probably already a right can of worms.

 

[Paul228]

I've just had a quote accepted for some minor works outside (replacing failed PIR and adding a new one). Client came back and said my time estimates were a bit high. I said in the quote that they were cautious estimates (2 hours for the replacement because I'm totally expecting to have to run a new cable segment to the PIR because there's probably only an inch sticking out the wall and 3 for the addition because it's an unknown quantity that involves modifying the existing lighting circuit) that included an appropriate level of testing and that if it took an hour, they would be billed accordingly.

When he phoned to accept the quote, he pointed out that the last time he had the PIR changed, the chap was there for 15 minutes and it cost him £30. So, doing the maths, that's £120 an hour and you can bet it included no testing what so ever in those 15 minutes apart from maybe a bit of functional testing (bit hard functionally testing a PIR with a daylight sensor in daylight don't you think?).

It obviously hasn't computed in his head the disparity in charging rates (£30 for 15 minutes vs. £35 for 60 minutes) and I'm pretty certain he has no idea about the need for a building control notification for the additional PIR because it's outside. And of course he has no idea of the post install follow up I provide when ever I fit a PIR device (like going back when it gets dark to tweak it and then another visit if they're not happy with setup).

But here I am, a customer I'd like to keep because he has a big list of other works he wants doing and already I feel like I'm on the back foot because I'm being compared to someone who thinks it's OK to charge £30 for 15 minutes work and provide absolutely no testing what so ever. And other things he said makes me feel it might end up being a time and motion study to establish whether I'm wasting time in order to rip him off and well as we all know, rushing on jobs is a recipe for disaster or a trip to A+E or worse.

I think one of the big problems is a complete lack of understanding about what's involved right down to an understanding of the building regulations and the legal obligations they impose. It's the same thing that causes DIY disasters, the little things like checking you've tightened up all your terminations, particularly in a CU. It all takes time but it's that time the cowboys (and girls) don't spend that makes it difficult for those of us with a properly functioning moral compass to compete.

I'm sure I'm not alone, but it's the thought of how I'd feel if I didn't do a good job and something terrible happened. I don't think I could live with myself and it's scary. That's what drives me to make sure everything I do is just so. If I miss out on work because someone is not willing to pay for that care and attention to detail, then I want no part in working on their installation because it's probably already a right can of worms.

We've all had those customers who say they could get it cheaper etc or last time it cost half the price you quote.
I have a simple rule with it.
I say, give me the number of the guy who can do it cheaper and I'll employ him.
Or I simply say, well why didn't you just get them back to do this, why did you call me, that's my price, if you can get it cheaper then do it.
I've had loads of these....And when you call their bluff, you end up getting the work 90% of the time

 

[Octopus]

£30 for 15 minutes is not £120 per hour. He had to drive there, then on to another job, and if he's honest with HMRC paperwork to do too.