Cut-throat Competition: The Race To The Bottom

[SparkyChick]

Gross cost to the customer it's £120 per hour. Whether he makes that in his pocket is another thing.

 

[Octopus]

I disagree. The customer wanted the job done and paid £30 which is more than reasonable imho. How it equates to hourly rates is irrelevent....

 

[SparkyChick]

Ok, I see where you're coming from, but hourly rates aside, the point I was really trying to get at was the lack of testing and the precedent that is set from the customer perspective in terms of time and price.

How can you counter that kind of perception?

 

[Paul228]

Educate the customer.
Tell them, whilst it's just changing out a faulty outside light, it comes under noticeable works as its outside.
So I can do the work and issue you with the paperwork or you can get someone else to do it and not bother issuing the paperwork.
But if the LA found out, you and/ or your installer could be taken to court.
Then wink at them and say a lot of reputable sparkies are actively reporting cowboys who carry out uncertified works.

 

[Octopus]

^^ depends on the customer. If they want out cheap no matter what there is not much that will sway them..... Until they come unstuck with some cow boy

 

[Paul228]

Don't get me wrong. I think all sparkies have done the odd job which should be notified, but didn't bother. Eg, my daughter's outside light wasn't working. I tested it, then replaced it with a new one.
Now I know there will be readers cussing in disgust at me.
Sue me!

 

[marc8]

been out to two EICR reports last few months both for people buying a house, well first 12 circuits 3 tested rest dashes throughout of the 3 the oven was one & the switch had not been removed as when I did the tiling dust & build dust all fell out & you could not move the range unit on your own.
the other only over weekend 7 circuits 3 tested amazing on sockets had a r1&r2 +r2.
limitations & same dashes all over the place claiming 10% on each.
I had to re-test 1st property when I looked in a side cupboard in eaves a batten holder had been removed & just a piece of loose tape on the live & N hanging free.
not even a mention.
my client paid me £150+Vat & found about 12 C1's.
this was family & the owner who had paid for the test could not believe it.
lucky people moving to the new bungalow will now be using my firm & are already talking about full rewire, they were new to the area 4 years ago had a rewire to the house when they moved in from a company from where they used to live.
this time they were going to use the chap who had completed the EICR on the property they were moving too until I asked if I could look at the cert & when I did I found same rubbish.
this bloke is doing me loads of favours keep up the good work.
I reported the first one for customer as they were really ----ed off & got well not sure what we can do, I was not even going to give out the NIC number but even with that they were not that interested.

 

[The Ghost]

A classic case in point; Did some track lights in domestic, showed customer wiring to downlights. They were appalled, the "builder" did it. They said they should have got a proper electrician in the first place. Of course they should. Rewired the whole lot, i.e. tracks and four downlights. And for those of you who are going to say it...that was the wiring before I intervened! It's all tucked up in lovely wago boxes now

 

[davesparks]

Sparkychic there's one thing in those pictures which would have got me told off when I was an apprentice, not flattening the vertical lugs in the single boxes before fitting them.

 

[SparkyChick]

Sparkychic there's one thing in those pictures which would have got me told off when I was an apprentice, not flattening the vertical lugs in the single boxes before fitting them.

Thanks, but can I ask... any particular reason? I've never given them a second thought.

 

[davesparks]

Thanks, but can I ask... any particular reason? I've never given them a second thought.

Yes, it gives you just that little bit more space when fitting the accessories, the unwanted lugs can have sharp edges which are not good if conductors end up pressed up against them.
Not such a concern with light switches but for a sfcu or DP switch every little bit of space can help.
With some makes of accessory you get terminal screws which are scarily close to those lugs if nor flattened. And some flat plataccesories even have a little label on them telling you to remove the top and bottom lugs before fitting them.

 

[SparkyChick]

Good advice, thanks. Probably second fixing at the weekend so I'll give them a little bit of TLC

 

[davesparks]

Good advice, thanks. Probably second fixing at the weekend so I'll give them a little bit of TLC

I do it on auto pilot these days, pick up the box, squash the lugs with my cutters then knock out the knockouts with them.

 

[rugbyspark1]

Electrical installation work, as all self-employed electricians will know, is a highly-competitive business. My own business operates mainly in the greater Glasgow area, and I have to say that I'm finding it increasingly difficult to compete on a level playing field.

I was recently approached by a builder who enquired as to what my fee would be to carry-out an EICR and some PA testing in domestic properties. I told him that I charge £100 for a one-bedroom house, £125 for a two-bedroom property, and £150 for a three-bedroom. Inspection and testing of outbuildings incur an additional fee. Imagine my surprise when he told me that my prices were "way too much". Imagine my further surprise when he told me that "the young electrician" that the builder currently uses to carry-out EICRs charges a flat-fee of £40. Aye, you read that correctly, £40 for an EICR regardless of the size of the property. My response was that I couldn't possibly compete with such a ridiculously low price unless I was willing to work for around £8-£10 an hour, or was willing to cut corners to save time, neither of which I would even begin to contemplate.

I occasionally use MyBuilder as a source of generating business, particularly during times when business is slack. I recently received a lead through the site inviting me to quote for a consumer unit upgrade. Upon contacting the customer to further discuss, the very first question that I was asked was the inevitable "how much is this going to cost me?" I told the customer that although I could provide an estimate, I could not, however, provide a fixed-price quotation prior to me having visited the customer's home and completed a survey. The customer responded by telling me that "all the other electricians I've shortlisted have given me a quotation so why can't you?"

I then explained to the customer that I was somewhat surprised to hear that electricians would even think about providing a fixed-price quotation for a consumer unit upgrade without having first attended the property and carried-out the requisite inspection and testing that needs to be done prior to a consumer unit replacement. The customer was having none of it. They wanted a price there and then. I once again reiterated that I could provide only an estimate at this stage, and told them that the work would cost anywhere between £250-£400 depending on a variety of factors. Imagine my astonishment when the customer told me that they had been given a fixed-price quotation of £200 over the phone by a "nice young man", and that they would now be offering the job to the comedian .... sorry .... electrician who quoted that unrealistically low price.

These two examples are but the tip of the iceberg. There are plenty more that I could cite. What particularly disturbs me is that it isn't "Dave down the pub" who is undercutting me, but young electricians who have not long completed their training. I just can't compete with the insane prices that these young electricians are quoting, particularly when some of them are evidently not even bothering to carry-out any essential inspection and testing before issuing quotations.

My gut instinct tells me that such scoundrels are most likely still living at home and being propped-up by 'the bank of mum and dad'. Perhaps the fools erroneously believe that the way to get ahead in business is to ruthlessly undercut everyone else. The strategy of a newly-started business using 'loss-leaders' as a means of winning customers is one thing, but I don't see how such a business model can possibly be sustained indefinitely. The end consequence of people quoting absurd prices is that a race to the bottom is instigated. It's a race that I have absolutely no intention whatsoever of ever participating in.

I'd be very interested to hear the views of other forum members regarding this issue as I'm sure plenty other electricians will have had similar experiences of cut-throat competition negatively impacting on their own businesses.

 

[rugbyspark1]

The last 3 yrs have had a number of bad installs all from NIEC reg companies. I wonder if it's due to Part Pee and our pretend electricians. During work I was asked to fit new metal light fitting, fitted and checked out earthing ! oops no earth. New C/U had been fitted by local company. Found this pic. Doubt if any testing done.

 

[Rpa07]

Looks like you've ' unearthed' a sea creature there - Did you see what I did! ?

 

[JK-Electrical]

Thank you all for your replies.

My lingering suspicion that the domestic market has been distorted has now been confirmed beyond any doubt. I'm now considering my position and am contemplating whether I should quit using MyBuilder altogether but remain in the domestic market with a revised marketing strategy, or whether I should just quit operating in the saturated domestic market altogether and leave the new breed of younger electricians to fight among themselves for jobs. I'm leaning heavily towards the latter course of action.

To demonstrate just how bad things are, I've attached a screenshot of a job that was recently posted on MyBuilder. The job was to remove an existing light fitting and fit a replacement. Nine people declared an interest. FFS. Nine electricians competing against one another for a small ten or fifteen minute job.

I won a job last week on MyBuilder to rewire a garage which I completed yesterday. While chatting with the customer, she revealed that from an initial pool of six interested parties, two were shortlisted. I was horrified to discover that the other (young) guy had quoted the customer a price over the phone without having first surveyed the work. I find it absolutely incredible that anyone purporting themselves as an electrician would not bother to inspect the existing installation. What if there was inadequate earthing and/or bonding? What if there was no RCD protection present? What if the garage required a TT earth?

Needless to say, my competitor's price was cheaper than mine. Indeed, my price was £350. His was just over £200. But he didn't get the job because I made sure that the customer was made aware of the requirements of regulation 131.8, and that by not priorly ascertaining the condition of an existing installation that he was hoping to make additions and alterations to, my competitor was willfully not complying with the requirements of BS 7671. One must wonder how many other regulations he considers to be inapplicable to himself.

Unfortunately, this (sharp) practice is commonplace on MyBuilder. Standards are being compromised right, left and centre. Sad but true. The race to the bottom continues unabated, but it's a race that I certainly won't be entering.

 

[Biggledyboo]

whether I should just quit operating in the saturated domestic market altogether and leave the new breed of younger electricians to fight among themselves for jobs. I'm leaning heavily towards the latter course of action[/QUOTE]



I'm a young electrician myself and I fully understand the dangers of going in disgustingly low to win jobs (undercut others) for work.
It de-values our skill-set and gives customers a false sense of pricing. Both of which are dangerous for the growth of our trade.

I like to think I keep my prices up with most of the sparks around my area. ----es me off royally knowing some little turd-burglar is nipping round changing lightfittings for a tenner, and doing C/U upgrades for £100.

 

[Des 56]

I find on these forums,probably because many electricians are self employed.quite a high proportion tend to vote Tory,yet in this thread there seems to be little regard for the most treasured of their values,its called free enterprise

Someone wants to spend the least amount of money,another person wants to provide that service,they may go in as low as needs be to win that contract,consequently the more expensive (or less efficient in Tory speak) they go to the wall

I know the resentment against these instant sparks is widespread however, We have a cut throat way of running an economy and some would say a foolhardy attitude by those who govern,but who votes for these fools ?

You reap what you sow, then you find the vegetation inedible

 

[JK-Electrical]

This "grandad electrician" was once a young electrician, but that was a long time ago lol. I'm now in the twilight years of my career and probably have about six or seven years ahead of me before retirement beckons. On the one hand, it saddens me to have witnessed such a sharp decline in standards in recent times, but on the other, it's good to see younger guys like yourself adhere to high standards and not prostitute yourself by selling yourself short. Good on ya!