Cut-throat Competition: The Race To The Bottom

[JK-Electrical]

I find on these forums,probably because many electricians are self employed.quite a high proportion tend to vote Tory,yet in this thread there seems to be little regard for the most treasured of their values,its called free enterprise

Someone wants to spend the least amount of money,another person wants to provide that service,they may go in as low as needs be to win that contract,consequently the more expensive (or less efficient in Tory speak) they go to the wall

I know the resentment against these instant sparks is widespread however, We have a cut throat way of running an economy and some would say a foolhardy attitude by those who govern,but who votes for these fools ?

You reap what you sow, then you find the vegetation inedible

Well, I certainly don't vote Tory. Indeed, I don't vote at all. Never have, never will. I consider voting to be a completely futile exercise given that "the man in the street" has his pants pulled down and gets royally shafted regardless of which particular political party is in government. That said, if embracing a market economy would make me a Tory, then a staunch Tory I am!

My gripe isn't about being beaten fairly on price, it's about being unfairly beaten on price. Big difference! I resent losing work to competitors who offer cheaper prices only because they are willfully not complying with the requirements of BS 7671. I have no problem whatsoever losing work to bona fide professional electricians whose work complies with the requirements of the big yellow book. What's the point in having wiring regulations if renegade electricians can act with impunity and decide for themselves which particular regulations they are going to ignore so to undercut their competitors?

 

[Des 56]

What's the point in having wiring regulations if renegade electricians can act with impunity and decide for themselves which particular regulations they are going to ignore so to undercut their competitors?

The free enterprise economy is the overwhelming reason that this is so prevalent

If a socialist government were in power and making another absolute mess of trying to address this sort of problem (eg Part P) it would soon be accused of interference in business matters,swamping the economy with endless regulation and stifling business interest

Messed up attempts at regulation have made the problem a hundred times worse than before government foolishly interfered with the matters of competence in domestic electrical installation

I agree it is annoying when idiots are in competition with well trained electricians and taking work that they are not competent to carry out,but its the "customer only" who is responsible for that situation

We live in a world where price is the main and often the only concern of a customer
Some will manoeuvre their way through the minefield,avoid the chaff and employ sparks who are well trained,they may get an assurance of quality via their enquiries

Others will employ the man from the pub,the kitchen guy or the guy who thinks its simple but has no clue
Its the customers responsibility to try and ensure he gets what he pays for
Regulatory attempts have been so flawed the chances of the man in the pub having more competence than the registered spark is not so big a bet

The problem is something that is a consequence of the market place economy and the market place itself decides who will and will not obtain work

 

[Anthony S]

Domestic work, anyone and everyone dabbles in it, its a finished industry for decent sparks, its 90% semi skilled work.

Don't know why decent sparks persist trying to compete in the domestic game (maybe the cash jobs) How many domestic vans driving around out there with logo's trying to get work thinking they are proper business's, its laughable.

Better off working on a proper sites doing commercial/industrial work.

 

[Pete999]

Domestic work, anyone and everyone dabbles in it, its a finished industry for decent sparks, its 90% semi skilled work.

Don't know why decent sparks persist trying to compete in the domestic game (maybe the cash jobs) How many domestic vans driving around out there with logo's trying to get work thinking they are proper business's, its laughable.

Better off working on a proper sites doing commercial/industrial work.

Got to disagree with you Anthony, whilst I also disagree with the down grading of Electricians who do mostly Domestic to DIs, in my opinion you are an Electrician, or you should be, what ever work you do.
The Training outfits are doing a disservice to the Trade by inventing DIs, a diluted Electrician, whilst I don't personally like the short cut way to qualification, I understand the situation, there are some very good Sparks coming from this route, and many bad ones.
The domestic route allows people to make a living, many Sparks can't get a foothold into the commercial/Industrial market so Domestic is all they have left, so please don't knock Domestic out of hand, I am a time served Electrician, don't like the short route but understand the dilemma, something I have to live with, we have several short route non Apprentice people on this forum, whom I regard as clever dedicated Electricians, and good luck to them, you do these people a disservice by laughing at them. Rant over

 

[FatAlan]

Supply and demand. How long before the cheapo boys realise they can't make a living at the prices they're charging.

 

[Anthony S]

Plenty of people wanting to be Electricians and 90% of the time Domestic is where they target, new build and occupied. There's to many and that just drives down prices and people need money so will work for less than the next person to survive that's a fact.

 

[DC-backfrom the past]

I know this is an old thread, however I found that I have great difficulty in getting a correct price for some jobs.
Builders seem to have their own ideas of prices ..
whilst they add on their percentage for a finders fee for the work.
I recently priced work at £200 for some sockets and lights in a new small extension.this was for a builder
Whilst doing the work, the owner was there, he was asking why I was charging £410 for the job!!!!
so maybe the builders that are driving down the prices are to blame ... needless to say I have made it clear to that builder now my prices are higher or I deal direct with the customer ..

 

[littlespark]

I do like reading these rants.

Where I live we don't have the same problem with non-british under qualified individuals undercutting our prices. But saying that, I still find problems finding jobs.
When I started self employed last year everyone was saying there was a shortage, - everyone's crying out for electricians.... they'll be no trouble getting work. .... Hmm? I must be doing something wrong?
Your average homeowner doesn't understand the work involved - the testing, the paperwork, nevermind paying for overheads.
Your average homeowner still gripes about having to take a car to a main dealer instead of Dodgy Dave round the corner. But it has to be done to honour any warranty.... and the fact you need a computing degree rather than a mechanical qualification these days.

I was asked by someone to quote for a supply to a detached garage at their house. They got my number from a mutual friend who referred me. I asked for their address and we would arrange a visit to see what was needed.
So far I haven't heard back.
My wife thinks they got someone else to do it because I didn't give a price over the phone.
I had to explain to my wife that I can't just pluck numbers out of thin air.
If she thinks that way, then Mrs Average Homeowner may think the same.

Another recent job involved me making up a temporary board with 6 double sockets for a property that had had a burst pipe, so that the cleaning firm could dry it out. I was told my quote was too much, so I brought it down a bit. Still more than what they said their normal Edinburgh contractor quoted. I explained that it still had to be tested, certified and constructed to current regs.
Their normal contractor probably has a stock of temp board already made up that they move from job to job, and charge hundreds for them each time.
I got that job basically because the property is 50ft from my front door.

 

[Octopus]

^^ you win some, you lose some.

It can take 3-5 years to build up a successful SE business........... so don't expect too much, too soon.

 

[littlespark]

^^ you win some, you lose some.

It can take 3-5 years to build up a successful SE business........... so don't expect too much, too soon.

Thanks, Murdoch. Good advice.
Last year I was relying on family/friends jobs and word of mouth references, but now I've advertised in the local paper and a bit of sponsorship for the local village summer fair.

 

[Octopus]

Thanks, Murdoch. Good advice.
Last year I was relying on family/friends jobs and word of mouth references, but now I've advertised in the local paper and a bit of sponsorship for the local village summer fair.

Just remember that in the quieter times you can take a bit more time and make sure everything is 110% correct ............. its the word of mouth referrals and repeat business you want ................ plus find a few complementary trades who might need your skills from time to time

AND don't be too reliant on too few customers ............... spread the risk around

 

[SparkyChick]

For the first 9 months or so most of my work was coming from the print ads I had running. Then I started to get word of mouth referrals coming in (had one or two before this, but they were few and far between). The job I'm doing now came from a referral from someone I did a job for way back just after I started in 2016.

Everything else I would say... @Murdoch 's already said it. It's sound advice for anyone starting out.

 

[DC-backfrom the past]

^^ you win some, you lose some.

It can take 3-5 years to build up a successful SE business........... so don't expect too much, too soon.

re win some lose some, how true is that . I recently spent a lot of time sorting out a lot of things for a friend of the family. Probably about a days free work all in ..they wanted downlights changed over and when I gave them a quote
because it wasn't free time they went elsewhere and paid double what I quoted...
also, they had the cheek to say I was taking advantage of the friendship by charging for my time !!!!!

argggghh

 

[Toneyz]

re win some lose some, how true is that . I recently spent a lot of time sorting out a lot of things for a friend of the family. Probably about a days free work all in ..they wanted downlights changed over and when I gave them a quote
because it wasn't free time they went elsewhere and paid double what I quoted...
also, they had the cheek to say I was taking advantage of the friendship by charging for my time !!!!!

argggghh

What an insult.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Why are people going on about jobs they didn’t notify?
From what I can see, the jobs don’t need to be notified.
Outside light, outside PIR, unless they were not fixed to the exterior of the building, never needed to be notified.

 

[littlespark]

That is awful, DC. Some friend!
Wait until there's another job in their house and they cant get anyone to come out quick, then all will be forgiven

 

[telectrix]

and of course, he'll be too busy to oblige. bloody chancers.

 

[baldelectrician]

Hi Jim / JK (think it's Jim from a quick search)
I have noticed a major cut in standards from others.
I have 1 local firm who issue EICR's that are not signed and things like SPD being checked are ticked in domestic installs where there are none and nobody bats an eyelid.
The letting agent still uses them

I have used the mybuilder etc. a couple of times 9-10 years ago and binned that.

I DO carry out EICR'S as a loss leader (and do test them to a good standard). I get around 95% of the remedials and that's where I make my money.

I prefer to let the 'bottom feeders' get all the cheap stuff as they are welcome to it.
My rate is £40 for the first hour and £35 per hour afterwards.

I am booked up till the end of April so things are OK.

 

[baldelectrician]

Hi Jim / JK (think it's Jim from a quick search)
I have noticed a major cut in standards from others.
I have 1 local firm who issue EICR's that are not signed and things like SPD being checked are ticked in domestic installs where there are none and nobody bats an eyelid.
The letting agent still uses them

I have used the mybuilder etc. a couple of times 9-10 years ago and binned that.

I DO carry out EICR'S as a loss leader (and do test them to a good standard). I get around 95% of the remedials and that's where I make my money.

I prefer to let the 'bottom feeders' get all the cheap stuff as they are welcome to it.
My rate is £40 for the first hour and £35 per hour afterwards.

I am booked up till the end of April so things are OK.

 

[JK-Electrical]

Hi Jim / JK (think it's Jim from a quick search)

It is indeed Jim. And like your good self, I too am bald.

I have noticed a major cut in standards from others.

Me too, I'm afraid. I'm extremely annoyed and concerned about what I've witnessed over the years and am now actively involved in trying to get the Scottish Government do something about it. Thankfully, the ball is now rolling at long last and momentum will now surely increase.

http://www.select.org.uk/selects-campaign-recognition-professional-electricians-raised-holyrood

The sooner those who are incompetent and unqualified are identified and prohibited from working on electrical installations the better.

I have 1 local firm who issue EICR's that are not signed and things like SPD being checked are ticked in domestic installs where there are none and nobody bats an eyelid.

These underhand practices defeat the purpose of an EICR entirely. I've just started doing EICRs for a Glasgow-based agency who got rid of their previous contractors for this very reason.

The letting agent still uses them.

That's because the agent couldn't care less about the quality of the report. All they're interested in is getting the report done as cheaply as possible and seeing the word 'Satisfactory' at the bottom of page 1.

I have used the mybuilder etc. a couple of times 9-10 years ago and binned that.

I've done over 100 jobs that came via My Builder, but have only done one through the site since last September. I got fed-up of being continually undercut by young boys out to make a name for themselves. The average age of these guys must be around 20. It would appear that they come out of school, go to college for 3 years then go straight to My Builder and Rated People. Indeed, every time I log-on there are inevitably more fresh-faced boys using the site, crowding-out an already overcrowded market.

I've had to compete in my own locality in Glasgow with guys traveling from places like Stirling, Dundee and Ayr. Seriously. When EICRs, smoke alarm installations and rewires come up, they all gather like flies round the proverbial turd undercutting one another right, left and centre. When a rewire job appears so too do the "we've done thousands of house rewires in 10 years and we'll do your house in a day" rewiring "specialists". I'm glad that I don't have to rely on My Builder for work.

I DO carry out EICR'S as a loss leader (and do test them to a good standard). I get around 95% of the remedials and that's where I make my money.

I won't budge on my prices for EICRs. I have a fixed-price tariff depending on the size and age of the property which is non-negotiable. The customer either accepts my price or I walk.

I prefer to let the 'bottom feeders' get all the cheap stuff as they are welcome to it.

That's my policy too. The problem though, is that the bottom-feeders also want a slice of the action for the lucrative jobs such as rewires and are active in that sector of the domestic market too.

My rate is £40 for the first hour and £35 per hour afterwards.

I'm struggling to get anywhere near those rates at the moment. That's how bad things are up in Glasgow right now. The city is absolutely hoaching with young boys working for pocket-money and they've all but killed the domestic market stone-dead. Thanks to these clowns, some landlords now expect to have an EICR done for £40, two interlinked smoke alarms and one interlinked heat alarm installed for £100, sockets installed for £25, and houses rewired for £1500. These young fools have created unrealistic customer expectations and distorted the market by way of their cut-throat competition. But ultimately, it is their own throats that are being cut because sooner or later their foolishness will catch-up with them and their businesses will suffer accordingly.

I am booked up till the end of April so things are OK.

I'm pleased to hear that. I think I'll start operating in your neck of the woods.