Domestic Lighting Circuit Methods In New Builds

[Ian1981]

You need joint boxes when lights have been wired with the mains in out to the rose which can be standard in a new build when the house is not sold and it's basic spec.
Nothing wrong with this but say you then wanted to install downlights then joint boxes will be necessary.

 

[Les Macaulay]

You need joint boxes when lights have been wired with the mains in out to the rose which can be standard in a new build when the house is not sold and it's basic spec.
Nothing wrong with this but say you then wanted to install downlights then joint boxes will be necessary.

Alternatively if we all in future use the switch boxes as the joint box, then no joint boxes are necessary, even with down-lighters. The point is, joint boxes, if unable to be left easily accessible, then don't use them at all. The switch box method also makes inspection and testing easier and much quicker without going below floors or into attic spaces.

 

[Ian1981]

Alternatively if we all in future use the switch boxes as the joint box, then no joint boxes are necessary, even with down-lighters. The point is, joint boxes, if unable to be left easily accessible, then don't use them at all. The switch box method also makes inspection and testing easier and much quicker without going below floors or into attic spaces.

Can make things difficult to tap off a supply for another lighting point such as adding a light in a loft.
A harder task when all mains are located in the switch.
You maybe able to fish a cable down the wall depends really.

As said already if designing for downlights mains to the switch, if not there's no reason why you can't loop in out at the light.
No wrong way really.
Also one of our apprentices said the preferred way teaching at College is mains in out at the switch as it eliminates time spent 2nd fixing a light on steps which anything working off the ground is considered working at a height, eliminating accidents.

 

[Octopus]

You need joint boxes when lights have been wired with the mains in out to the rose which can be standard in a new build when the house is not sold and it's basic spec.
Nothing wrong with this but say you then wanted to install downlights then joint boxes will be necessary.

I disagree. Why do you need joint boxes, especially hidden ones the op is going on about.

Neural at switch is the way I normally go these days.....

 

[Les Macaulay]

Can make things difficult to tap off a supply for another lighting point such as adding a light in a loft.
A harder task when all mains are located in the switch.
You maybe able to fish a cable down the wall depends really.

As said already if designing for downlights mains to the switch, if not there's no reason why you can't loop in out at the light.
No wrong way really.
Also one of our apprentices said the preferred way teaching at College is mains in out at the switch as it eliminates time spent 2nd fixing a light on steps which anything working off the ground is considered working at a height, eliminating accidents.

 

[Les Macaulay]

You are right, Ian.
Was thinking of the type of terrace house where the octopus system has been used with the large joing box below the upstairs floor and client has composite flooring fitted. This would be a nighmare to gain access to the joint box. As you say, there is no right way.

 

[davesparks]

^^ if you are doing a new lighting circuit, why do you need ANY form of JB?

Edit: Poor design and install IMHO

I guess I'm guilty of poor design and install then!
When it's possible to locate it sensibly I always use a central RB4 type joint box for a lighting circuit.

 

[Octopus]

When it's possible to locate it sensibly I always use a central RB4 type joint box for a lighting circuit.

Best you define "sensibly" as I can't find that in the BYB!

 

[davesparks]

Best you define "sensibly" as I can't find that in the BYB!

Indeed, it's based entirely on my own opinion, and where I would be inclined to look for it.

So if in a loft I would mount it above insulation level, on a purlin or a board screwed to the uprights of trusses.
In a chalet bungalow it would be just inside the access into the eaves, again mounted above insulation level.
And if possible I will have a light fitting near it which is fed via a different circuit.

 

[Sollyg]

Hi please can somebody help answer my question
I got a total of 50 spot lights in a house i am goin to install. I am goin to use wagos
Do I HAVE to put every light wagos connectors in an enclosure if so why?
Some body said just put insulation tape on them
All this is happening in terraced house with no insulation in ceiling and the lights are double insulated , all gonna b with led 4 watt bulb
Thank u

 

[Octopus]

Yes, unless you go to work on a horse

 

[davesparks]

Hi please can somebody help answer my question
I got a total of 50 spot lights in a house i am goin to install. I am goin to use wagos
Do I HAVE to put every light wagos connectors in an enclosure if so why?
Some body said just put insulation tape on them
All this is happening in terraced house with no insulation in ceiling and the lights are double insulated , all gonna b with led 4 watt bulb
Thank u

Yes'm every connection will need to be in an enclosure, the reason is that this is what is required by the regulations.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Hi please can somebody help answer my question

If you need to ask then you shouldn't be doing the job!
As above.
All terminations must be in an enclosure.
All cable sheaths must also enter the enclosure.
Unless the enclosure is screwed to a background,and the cables are clipped, then the enclosure must have strain relief for the cables.
If the termination is a screwed it must be accessible, or use a maintenance free termination.
There's probably more too.

Best to buy 50 Wagolight boxes to go with your downlights.

 

[Les Macaulay]

Yes'm every connection will need to be in an enclosure, the reason is that this is what is required by the regulations.

All joking apart, and based on practicalities, as what happened to me was my downstairs lights all failed one night. I checked all connections at the Consumer Unit and found them all to be tight. I removed two wall switches and saw that there must be a joint box or three terminal ceiling roses used but there were no three terminal ceiling roses in the installation. So where are the joints? Wiring was from the upstairs down to the ground floor switches, so the joint box/boxes had to be below the upstairs floor boards. I lifted the fitted carpet at one end of the long landing and found no sign of floor boards that had been marked to indicated where the joint box/boxes were. At last, I discovered the Octopus joint box system had been used. So all switch cables and ceiling point cables terminated in that box. It was, in effect a "Marshalling" box.
Upon opening the box I saw that the Gas Board electrician who installed the mains connected smoke detectors during the upgrade of the heating system from warm air to combi-boiler had connected his live feed under the connecting brass plate that joined all the switch feeds and the main feed for the circuit. But he had placed the copper at an angle over the existing coppers. The plate that clamped the six copper feeds was not making an effective pressure on all the coppers as a result. I assume that the coppers were seated in grooves in the octopus joint box. I tried to unscrew the brass 2BA or 4mm terminal screw but it was solid and it gave up till the next time. Since then the downstairs lights have never even flickered but I will go back and strip out the octopus box and use some other type of multi connecting method. I am trying to decide which method to use - terminal strips linked out, Wago's, solder the bloody coppers or whatever. Ideas please.
I give you all of this detail so that you will realise that joint boxes below wooden floors as a method of splitting the line conductor is very bad practice.
Suggestions welcome. Not prepared to move home!

 

[davesparks]

All joking apart, and based on practicalities, as what happened to me was my downstairs lights all failed one night. I checked all connections at the Consumer Unit and found them all to be tight. I removed two wall switches and saw that there must be a joint box or three terminal ceiling roses used but there were no three terminal ceiling roses in the installation. So where are the joints? Wiring was from the upstairs down to the ground floor switches, so the joint box/boxes had to be below the upstairs floor boards. I lifted the fitted carpet at one end of the long landing and found no sign of floor boards that had been marked to indicated where the joint box/boxes were. At last, I discovered the Octopus joint box system had been used. So all switch cables and ceiling point cables terminated in that box. It was, in effect a "Marshalling" box.
Upon opening the box I saw that the Gas Board electrician who installed the mains connected smoke detectors during the upgrade of the heating system from warm air to combi-boiler had connected his live feed under the connecting brass plate that joined all the switch feeds and the main feed for the circuit. But he had placed the copper at an angle over the existing coppers. The plate that clamped the six copper feeds was not making an effective pressure on all the coppers as a result. I assume that the coppers were seated in grooves in the octopus joint box. I tried to unscrew the brass 2BA or 4mm terminal screw but it was solid and it gave up till the next time. Since then the downstairs lights have never even flickered but I will go back and strip out the octopus box and use some other type of multi connecting method. I am trying to decide which method to use - terminal strips linked out, Wago's, solder the bloody coppers or whatever. Ideas please.
I give you all of this detail so that you will realise that joint boxes below wooden floors as a method of splitting the line conductor is very bad practice.
Suggestions welcome. Not prepared to move home!

I have not suggested that joint boxes below wooden floors, or in any inaccessible location, is a good thing.

Also as far as I can see from your story the fault has been caused by the gas installer and so you should be pursuing them to rectify the fault.

 

[Les Macaulay]

The thing is, it has taken more than six years to show so forget that. If it had. Een a mere month or two ago, I would have got the fitter back. Even the system installers were subbies of the Brittish Gas.
I will repair the fault myself but am only showing what can happen in the life of an installation, for the younger age group of sparks out there.
Thanks to all who have posted.