ECA and ESC announce major partnership

[Rockingit]

I used to get bored!

Announcement from the dept of the bleedin' obvious!!

 

[Engineer54]

Make your mind up!



Either the 2330 is a lesser qualification and a waste of my time, or its a core requirement for every electrician.

To be honest I can't be bothered arguing anymore. If anyone has the temerity to take a different view to your own you throw all your toys out of the pram. If they still don't back down you start contradicting yourself in an attempt to prove a point.

Things have moved on, many of us don't think it's for the better or like the changes. Some accept that progress isn't allways good and get on with it. Some moan their faces off on a forum and try to belittle anyone who takes a different view or route to theirs. So you carry on moaning and tilting at windmills, I'll carry on earning a living, and so will the evil training providers and dodgy 5 week wonders.

I'll bet that while all that is going on there won't be a sudden increase in electrocutions, the job of an electrician will continue to have several definitions, society will not come to an end, and the majority of people will carry on with their lives.

Perhaps you can explain exactly where i have backtracked or contradicted myself?? If your still talking about the 2360 and the 2330, it's either or, not both for god's sake!! Though in your case, why anyone would bother taking the 2330, when already holding a full 2360 B/C is just totally beyond me!!

I too can't be bothered arguing anymore with you, it clearly isn't worth it, your basically arguing for arguments sake!! Trying to convince us that it's fine that electricians don't need the training they once had, because we live in different times, ...that is just total nonsense. Perhaps you can explain why this isn't the case in France, Germany, Netherlands, (and a good few more in western Europe) where there electricians training regime is improving with the times rather than being whittled away?? But then our European cousins don't have anything like our 17 day/electrical trainee training courses, they are just not as bloody stupid as the UK.

Burying your head in the sand, will sooner rather than later bite you hard in the arse!!

 

[Engineer54]

I'm sort of in agreement with everyone on this which is awkward - the merits of having 'full' (whatever that is) training to probably go on to work in only a few areas -v- starting out that way to start with and specialising (and I use the term loosely!) in the training.

Here's a thought for us all, though: I'm going to use Tony as an example, and only as an example, not because I'm in anyway trying to take a swing at him.......as I understand it his electrical background (which is significant and to be respected) pretty much centred from the earliest days as an apprentice in heavy industry. How much of his training was spent doing 'light' and buildings related installs, rewiring the burnt-out pub, running in new office lights, ripping up Mrs Jones' floorboards..etc? Because that's almost entirely what mine consisted of - and I couldn't even have told you where the nearest big factory was, let alone a foundry or similar. But both of us spent our time in the classroom, learning the same theories, doing the same maths, wondering who on earth would ever actually need to calculate flux losses in the real world (or whatever was the stupid lesson of the day).

So you've two apprentice trained, experienced sparks (albeit Tony has a few more years on me) with completely different backgrounds and skill-sets. Both equally fulfil the 'time served -v- Electrical Trainee' debate, yet we might just as well be from different planets. And I'd quite like to live on his.

(Tony - hope you know me well enough to get the sense of what I mean!)

The difference being, that he could and did turn his hand to Domestic work, a domestic electrician (which it seems, all we are churning out of our colleges now) would have a hard time turning they're hand too heavy industrial work etc!! Changing times should mean that today's college students should be getting ''Better'' training than the likes of Tony and Myself, not limited, or inferior training...

 

[Rockingit]

The difference being, that he could and did turn his hand to Domestic work, a domestic electrician (which it seems, all we are churning out of our colleges now) would have a hard time turning they're hand too heavy industrial work etc!! Changing times should mean that today's college students should be getting ''Better'' training than the likes of Tony and Myself, not limited, or inferior training...

OK, that's a fine principal, but my point earlier is that his apprenticeship didn't cover the 'cannon fodder' kind of stuff, mine didn't cover heavy industrial but both were equally valid in their own merits. And to play devils advocate, given my other earlier remark, I've not been in a plant environment, none that I know of exist around my area....so had I have been taught those skills back then, by now they would be rusty at best and I'd be a danger trying to use them, therefore what's the point in 'knowing' them?

 

[Toonlad]

Its a funny old world this sparky stuff, I served my time in the shipyards, Swan Hunters back in the day,working on merchant and MOD ships, attention to details was a must. As an apprentice we got bounced around 4 yards and worked on different ships. We had to do plant maintenance, fixing the cranes, welding sets,generators, undercutting motors etc. They had there own instrument tech, and we had to work with him and calibrate meters and other equipment. At college we covered domestic aswell as the marine modules.

We had the influx of miners, who our shop stewards got them into the union (eetpu) at the time. This was my first eye opener, They came with there card NUM, it covered everyone, from faceworkers to templights etc. Then some of these said they were electricians through the NUM, and now got full electrician status through the shop stewards,this was a complete slap in the face for lots of sparks at the time.What could you do or say, it was my own union moving the goal posts.

At this point i realised that becoming an electrician, was going to become easier over the years, and any loopholes, through training providers, colleges,employers would be exploited. It is now down to 5 weeks in essence now.

This being said and done, I had a well rounded 4 yr apprenticeship, and would do well on other work like domestics. Redundancies start I move on.

I couldnt get a fix straight away, as a lot of sites wouldnt take yard workers, they thought they were crap, and couldnt wire a plug. I got a fix on a site, and applied for a JIB card, took 3 yrs before they granted me my approved. Then I see an old school mate, who was a posty, done 2 yrs city and guilds courses, got his brother in law who was the contracts manager and he got a JIB card, and was deemed a electrician.

So from early 80s, and had seen two ways of people getting electrician status. Other than doing an apprenticeship and getting there indentures.

These fast track ways have always been there in one shape or another, its just now its more openly promoted, and is backed by governing bodies. As Craftsmen/tradesmen/technicians/engineers. We have only our selves to blame. It is us that have lowered the bar, it is us who have let them get away with it.

I used to be quite proud of calling my self a time served electrician, now that does not seem to matter anymore.

Im sure there is some relevance in my post somewhere.

 

[Engineer54]

OK, that's a fine principal, but my point earlier is that his apprenticeship didn't cover the 'cannon fodder' kind of stuff, mine didn't cover heavy industrial but both were equally valid in their own merits. And to play devils advocate, given my other earlier remark, I've not been in a plant environment, none that I know of exist around my area....so had I have been taught those skills back then, by now they would be rusty at best and I'd be a danger trying to use them, therefore what's the point in 'knowing' them?

Using that analogy, would mean that electricians only need to be trained for the local conditions in which they live. God help you, if you move away from that area into an industrial /semi industrial area, or the like!! I can't think of any educational College or otherwise qualification, that would limit the curriculum based on local conditions. They are and always have been based on a national standard curriculum set by whatever educational institute the qualification paper is set by. Any electrical training (and it's final qualification) should be such, that it provides the student with a good all round technical foundation on which to start your career.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Its a funny old world this sparky stuff, I served my time in the shipyards, Swan Hunters back in the day,working on merchant and MOD ships, attention to details was a must. As an apprentice we got bounced around 4 yards and worked on different ships. We had to do plant maintenance, fixing the cranes, welding sets,generators, undercutting motors etc. They had there own instrument tech, and we had to work with him and calibrate meters and other equipment. At college we covered domestic aswell as the marine modules.

We had the influx of miners, who our shop stewards got them into the union (eetpu) at the time. This was my first eye opener, They came with there card NUM, it covered everyone, from faceworkers to templights etc. Then some of these said they were electricians through the NUM, and now got full electrician status through the shop stewards,this was a complete slap in the face for lots of sparks at the time.What could you do or say, it was my own union moving the goal posts.

At this point i realised that becoming an electrician, was going to become easier over the years, and any loopholes, through training providers, colleges,employers would be exploited. It is now down to 5 weeks in essence now.

This being said and done, I had a well rounded 4 yr apprenticeship, and would do well on other work like domestics. Redundancies start I move on.

I couldnt get a fix straight away, as a lot of sites wouldnt take yard workers, they thought they were crap, and couldnt wire a plug. I got a fix on a site, and applied for a JIB card, took 3 yrs before they granted me my approved. Then I see an old school mate, who was a posty, done 2 yrs city and guilds courses, got his brother in law who was the contracts manager and he got a JIB card, and was deemed a electrician.

So from early 80s, and had seen two ways of people getting electrician status. Other than doing an apprenticeship and getting there indentures.

These fast track ways have always been there in one shape or another, its just now its more openly promoted, and is backed by governing bodies. As Craftsmen/tradesmen/technicians/engineers. We have only our selves to blame. It is us that have lowered the bar, it is us who have let them get away with it.

I used to be quite proud of calling my self a time served electrician, now that does not seem to matter anymore.

Im sure there is some relevance in my post somewhere.

Respect to you bonny lad.

I had 3 ex-Swan's lads working for me - a Driller, a Pipefitter & a Caulker/Burner. Good grafters & very handy to take with me when I had to visit customers who were a bit slow in paying the bill ......

 

[ricardo123]

I'd like to put down my two pence worth on this subject, I apologise if this has already been said as I have only made it up to post 110 (so far).

At the end of the day these schemes make money by getting more members to join their said scheme. So it is in their interests to dumb down the standards required to join a scheme as they will make more money hence the Electrical Trainee. They would possibly be happy if they could get it down to a 1 day course to be an electrician before joining as they will make more money.

My second point is that being a charity these days can be meaningless. Some companies now register as charities not because they are real charities but because of the benefits to making more money it brings. I am not suggesting any scheme has done this but just being registered as a charity does not make a company altruistic.

My third point is that the current schemes are making it harder for people like myself to want to work for other companies, such as facilities management companies, as they want to employ a QS to sign off unskilled tradesmen's work. They are not bothered whether the quality is great so long as the number of jobs completed is high, this puts pressure on qualified people like myself to sign anything off even when we know it's possibly substandard.

Unfortunately the schemes in my opinion have been the single biggest cause for a lowering of electrical standards since I can remember.

 

[Geordie Spark]

There's still no sign of the OP lads 'n' lasses ....... I do hope he's looking in and taking all of this on board !!!

 

[SirKit Breaker]

I have had a recent conversation regarding this from a very very reliable source. Just to really pee you off, to get onto this register you will need as a minimum to have served a recognised apprenticeship, hold the latest 17th edition qualification, hold both C&G 2394 and 2395 or equivalent, hold 2391 but have a plan in place to get 2394 and 2395. The industry is out to kill the cowboys, but how many good sparks with grandfather rights will be killed in the process?

Cheers.............Howard

 

[Engineer54]

I have had a recent conversation regarding this from a very very reliable source. Just to really pee you off, to get onto this register you will need as a minimum to have served a recognised apprenticeship, hold the latest 17th edition qualification, hold both C&G 2394 and 2395 or equivalent, hold 2391 but have a plan in place to get 2394 and 2395. The industry is out to kill the cowboys, but how many good sparks with grandfather rights will be killed in the process?

Cheers.............Howard

who's this source that's making up the rules before anyone has even had a chance to review or comment on them?? For a kick off, you cannot take away/deny ''Grandfather Rights'' as they are called. Even the JIB tried that one on and failed!!... The way you are describing things here, is that there will only be one grade of registered electrician, and that can't be and never will be the case. There will also be a real need, to bring the registry in over at least a 3 year period, to allow those that don't presently have the required minimal qualifications and/or experience, time to fulfill minimum requirements to gain entry.

 

[Knobhead]

I have had a recent conversation regarding this from a very very reliable source. Just to really pee you off, to get onto this register you will need as a minimum to have served a recognised apprenticeship, hold the latest 17th edition qualification, hold both C&G 2394 and 2395 or equivalent, hold 2391 but have a plan in place to get 2394 and 2395. The industry is out to kill the cowboys, but how many good sparks with grandfather rights will be killed in the process?

Cheers.............Howard

So who is going to run this utopian scheme?
Don’t get me wrong Howard it would be a good move, but only if divorced from the existing schemes and the JIB.
As I see it only government intervention could get this implemented. As I said earlier, it would need a charter to give it teeth.

 

[Engineer54]

So who is going to run this utopian scheme?
Don’t get me wrong Howard it would be a good move, but only if divorced from the existing schemes and the JIB.
As I see it only government intervention could get this implemented. As I said earlier, it would need a charter to give it teeth.

It'll need to be ''TOTALLY'' divorced from any of the existing scheme providers, if it has any chance at all of working!!

Letting any of those jokers have anything to do with it, will be like yet another cash cow organisation let loose on the industry!! And probably change nothing in the process, and probably even lead to further degradation of the industry!!

 

[Outspoken]

I have had a recent conversation regarding this from a very very reliable source. Just to really pee you off, to get onto this register you will need as a minimum to have served a recognised apprenticeship, hold the latest 17th edition qualification, hold both C&G 2394 and 2395 or equivalent, hold 2391 but have a plan in place to get 2394 and 2395. The industry is out to kill the cowboys, but how many good sparks with grandfather rights will be killed in the process?

Cheers.............Howard

This is total nonsense , the 2391 qualification was an NICEIC created spunk dream that they attempted to foist on the industry to cover up that they had reduced the standards and were simply interested in making money.

I have said this countless time in the past and I will say it till the day I die..

Any fully apprenticed and trained electrician knows when an installation is or is not compliant or safe, if they do not then they are a flipping plumber, as such the 2391 is a cash cow cert designed to create division in the industry by the scam providers.

To attack those with so called "Grandfather rights" would be a mistake, many of these Guys are the real professionals in the industry because they learnt the trade on the tools and the hard way, they need to concentrate on improving standards the HONEST way by having Electrical Trainee courses and 17th ed only courses BANNED because these put lives at risk every day, but the reality is they will not because this would cost them revenue..

 

[Rockingit]

And now, this thread has descended from Electrical Trainee -v- timeserved to which timeserved's got the biggest knob. And you wonder why in-fighting has been the death of the trade?!

 

[KingKenny]

You know reading these posts it looks like Electrical Trainee v Timed Served but that's not how I see it looks to me the problem is the ever growing monster that basically must be fed and it does not care where it gets its money from and yes I mean the Schemies who in my view have saturated and diluted the trade. Now I realise that apprenticeships are no longer going about and there are guys wanting to enter the trade as mature trainers fine but the current environment where people have no hope with regards to jobs are saying thats it I am going to change my life and all the schemes are bothered about is selling them courses and registering them.

Now that premise sounds ok but the problem we have is the title electrician so in my view the Scheme system can be good as say a modern apprenticeship system were an Individual does 6 months training and then are grade as Domestic electricians with supervision from the Scheme.

I haven't read this whole thread, yet, so apologies in advance ...... To nail my colours to the mast ..... I'm possibly what many on here would term a Electrical Trainee (except that my course was spread out over 24 months of home study with training/assessment weeks rather than as an intensive course - That's by the by though, I think). I'm what I'd describe as a reasonably intelligent 50 year old, who spent most of my life in IT. Way back when, I was taken out of school as a 15 year old by my Dad and started work as an apprentice fitter - I lasted 18 months - I hated it and, if I'm honest, I was crap, so I quit and went back to school. BUT in my time in this firm .... I very much understood the value of apprenticeships, the honesty of work, the respect for those who know more than you do (they're not ALWAYS older by the way!) and the value and importance of turning out the highest quality work you can to the best of your ability............
So fast forward 30 odd years - I sign up to a training scheme, with reservations, and I'm a last training week away from 'qualifying' (deliberate quotes). The quality of the training on-site has been very very good, but I'm not a mug - I've been on site for a very small amount of time, learning from the masters, so to speak. I've worked very very hard to pass the exams I have during the course (2382-20, Part P and 2377). The first (2382) I'm proud of passing - I got ONE question wrong and that was a typo, the second (Regs) is useful only in that it makes me think whenever I'm on a new job as to what is good practice, the last (PAT Testing), I'll never use. I'll certainly follow this up with a Testing C&G 2391 level 3 or similar in the next 9 months or so. Do I consider myself to be a 'qualified electrician'? Of course I don't!!!!! But I certainly DO consider myself good enough to do most (important, this!) Domestic electrical work using the technical principles I've learned over the last 2 years and aligning these with the principles embedded into me over 30 years ago. I'm an honest person. I would never, EVER, knowingly endanger anyone in work that I'd do - I'm one of these people we talk about that would lie awake at night worrying if I think I've done something wrong. My point, at last, is that when I think the time is right for me to be assessed to join a CPS, when I've gained enough experience in the field, worked with experienced guys I know, got good advice on here and elsewhere - at LEAST another year ahead IMO, when I've been paid by clients and I've paid Building Control and NIC qualified guys to sign off my jobs as correct so the customer can get the certification they deserve, why should I be penalised by not being allowed to join an exclusive self-cert club because I haven't been trained 'in the right way'? To me that doesn't make sense. If I get assessed by NIC or Elecsafe or whatever they're going to be called, and I pass, and I get assessed every year, and pass, then what exactly is the problem? If they say 'Sorry, we're not even going to assess you because .....' then that's just not right IMO. I GET and agree with what they're trying to do, but there are good guys who will fall through the gaps, and not just those with Grandfather rights.

 

[KingKenny]

Oh! - And if anyone could tell me how to get the damned return key to register so I can format my posts correctly, that'd help...

 

[DJ Ovengloves]

Personally I don't feel there's an issue with people doing short "fast track" courses that are limited in scope - as long as the people taking them know their own limitations and these limitations are known to the public.

The problem is that in many, many cases, the Electrical Trainee as they "like" to be called here will take a short course, pass the required exams and will do jobs they are not prepared for - dangerously.

Poor old competent spark (whether they are timed served or not) gets undercut and poor old Joe Public gets a false sense of security on a dangerous install.

 

[Engineer54]

Personally I don't feel there's an issue with people doing short "fast track" courses that are limited in scope - as long as the people taking them know their own limitations and these limitations are known to the public.

The problem is that in many, many cases, the Electrical Trainee as they "like" to be called here will take a short course, pass the required exams and will do jobs they are not prepared for - dangerously.

Poor old competent spark (whether they are timed served or not) gets undercut and poor old Joe Public gets a false sense of security on a dangerous install.

If you don't have an issue, you dam well should!! And if for nothing else for the very reasons you give in your post!!

Limited scope is what the plumbers and kitchen fitters have, NOT the 17 day/Electrical Trainee fast track guys. They can undertake any domestic work they choose!! ...And that only relates to Domestic, so these wannabees can undertake any commercial and or industrial work they want to, as they don't have any restrictions in these areas, except for the word ''Competent''!! Far too many actually think they are fully qualified, and as such competent too. You get these guy's coming on here stating that they will only take on work within their limitations, ...personally i don't believe a word of it!!

The public have no idea who they are employing, as these scheme providers tar all it's registered members with the same make believe title of ''Domestic Installer''. I believe the public has been taken for as much of a ride, as the trained electricians have, with this Part Pee crap and the rise of the training centres that basically serve to boost the revenue of the scheme providers....

No we have to put an end to these fast track training centres, and as soon as feasibly possible too!!

 

[Spoon]

If you don't have an issue, you dam well should!! And if for nothing else for the very reasons you give in your post!!

Limited scope is what the plumbers and kitchen fitters have, NOT the 17 day/Electrical Trainee fast track guys. They can undertake any domestic work they choose!! ...And that only relates to Domestic, so these wannabees can undertake any commercial and or industrial work they want to, as they don't have any restrictions in these areas, except for the word ''Competent''!! Far too many actually think they are fully qualified, and as such competent too. You get these guy's coming on here stating that they will only take on work within their limitations, ...personally i don't believe a word of it!!

The public have no idea who they are employing, as these scheme providers tar all it's registered members with the same make believe title of ''Domestic Installer''. I believe the public has been taken for as much of a ride, as the trained electricians have, with this Part Pee crap and the rise of the training centres that basically serve to boost the revenue of the scheme providers....

No we have to put an end to these fast track training centres, and as soon as feasibly possible too!!

What should the public look out for or ask when they are looking for a person to do some work on their house? I dont fully know...