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Sam cook

Hello all

I'm new to this forum and have recently joined due to a lot of threads here have been quite interesting and many have very good answers from knowledgeable people.

I've been sparking for 12 years and spent my apprenticeship with my fathers electrical company. My appretership was quite harsh and a lot was expected due to being family and making a demonstration to the non family members of the company. Myself and brother upon my dads retirement have gone into partnership with a reputable Fire Alarm company. Now I've not got a lot of experience in fire alarm other then installing containment and cable but I'm learning slowly more about it.

Now I class myself as a electrical contractor first because that's what I've trained as. Now I had a job today which I struggle to appreciate.

I was given half a day to put a 230 volt unstitched fused spur and supply in for a door magnet which will be switched by a I/O from the existing Fire Alarm System Loop wiring. Now today was the first time I saw the job (Old People's Home) I looked for a power sauce/DB/Coming off existing Door Mags and doing away with the I/O. None of the above near say 30-40 Mtrs away. I spoke to the fire alarm chaps and said I need more then half a day to get a cable there i.e. By decorative pclipping or trunking and fire fixings. Metal containment would not have looked pleasing in the decoration of the corridors. I was instructed to use a lighting feed if possible which was viable.

Now If I had done this under my dads leadership I would have been struck down and would not be acceptable. The Fire Alarm chaps seam to think this is fine. I can't get over the fact I've got a fused spur of a lighting feed which upon every month will be isolated by site team to test emergency lights due to no test switch keys installed.

I would like other people's thoughts on this, my dad states it only takes a person to come and see a spur and think ahh there's power we will put a socket there and straight away 6Amp McB 1.5mm pvc cable constant tripping, to a possible long term client . I labelled the spur and its purpose and circuit designation for note.

Any help or argument on this will be helpful. I want to make a point to the company that I'm not happy certifiying this work when I could have gone to the site quoted the job accordingly and if it was too much etc then hay ho we can't do the job the way we want it, let some other person do it.

Any tips welcomed

Many thanks
Sam
 
I agree that using a lighting circuit to supply a door mag is a bad idea. If someone isolates the lighting circuit to work on it the door could unexpectedly close on someone.
 
I was under the impression of fitting a battery back up supply but apparently it is not required and the door mag closes on fault condition also so if power is lost I imagine it will shut. I have been told that we are no longer suppose to take them of sounder lines anymore. I do,struggle with battery back up and no battery back up, some door systems we fitted have it and others don't. Not very competent with bs5839 and it's full requirements concerning doors. In the past I've just installed cable, containment and mags and a Fire Alarm engineer comes and completes. I'm glad I'm not alone in this thought of it being a bad idea. I've been in partnership with he fire alarm side for 3 years and have found very different working practices from what I know.
And learnt.
 
I was under the impression of fitting a battery back up supply but apparently it is not required and the door mag closes on fault condition also so if power is lost I imagine it will shut. I have been told that we are no longer suppose to take them of sounder lines anymore. I do,struggle with battery back up and no battery back up, some door systems we fitted have it and others don't. Not very competent with bs5839 and it's full requirements concerning doors. In the past I've just installed cable, containment and mags and a Fire Alarm engineer comes and completes. I'm glad I'm not alone in this thought of it being a bad idea. I've been in partnership with he fire alarm side for 3 years and have found very different working practices from what I know.
And learnt.
Yeah not really my area of expertise but I always thought maglocks are inherently fail safe not fail secure.
 
They don't need battery back up, the problem here is the lack of emergency lighting test facilities. It is totally inappropriate to isolate all the general lighting to test the emergency lighting in an occupied premises, personally I don't see a problem connecting the source from a "lighting" circuit providing it is correctly identified.
 
I do agree with the concern regarding lack of emergency test facilities. I'm finding quite a few of the fire alarm company clients very behind with one installation having a 10amp light switch test facility in he communal corridor areas! Now we have been in partnership for 3 years and I'm trying to to take emergency lighting servicing off the fire alarm side and bring it in to the electrical side. We carry out monthly testing and annual discharge tests and provide detailed tailor made log books to each client. Have had quite a few arguments regarding asset logs!
 
I do agree with the concern regarding lack of emergency test facilities. I'm finding quite a few of the fire alarm company clients very behind with one installation having a 10amp light switch test facility in he communal corridor areas! Now we have been in partnership for 3 years and I'm trying to to take emergency lighting servicing off the fire alarm side and bring it in to the electrical side. We carry out monthly testing and annual discharge tests and provide detailed tailor made log books to each client. Have had quite a few arguments regarding asset logs!
Nothing surprises me but it seems you are at least trying to do the right thing. What activates the doors to close under alarm conditions.
 
Thanks westward 10. Yes trying but it seams to hit walls sometimes. A lot of sites are not even numbered and the company don't like the idea of numbering in case they loose the service contract and another contractor has the work already done for them. I've been to countless jobs where somewhere else from the company has failed emergency lights and I've gone to repair/replace them and get there and have to put Colombo hat on and deduce what emergency light In corridor near classroom is defective instead of EL 12 for example.
 
Thanks westward 10. Yes trying but it seams to hit walls sometimes. A lot of sites are not even numbered and the company don't like the idea of numbering in case they loose the service contract and another contractor has the work already done for them. I've been to countless jobs where somewhere else from the company has failed emergency lights and I've gone to repair/replace them and get there and have to put Colombo hat on and deduce what emergency light In corridor near classroom is defective instead of EL 12 for example.
I know exactly where you are coming from, the simplest of things like a bit of numbering seems like the hardest of things for some people to do.
 
I'm impressed how many thoughts and opinions have been given in so little time. I'm glad I'm not being a total jobs worth regarding this query. Thanks all so far for you opinions and comments!
 
The door has a addressable input output unit which will be programmed with cause and effects and will operate on the fire alarm going into Alarm mode I believe, this will break the 230 volt supply to the door magnet and the door will release and shut. I don't get involved with this side too much other then breaking the loop and get the wiring in place for connections only to be done by Fire Alarm Engineer!
 
If they are door retainers that hold the door open during normal hours then you just put them through a relay on a plate and a power supply without battery back up then in the event of a fire or activation it drops the power out and the doors close.
If you were inside the room at the time you simply push the door open.
We fit them on the c-tec panels
Bf376 and a bf375p
 
These are what we fit
 

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