Ethics around EICR

[andyb]

Confidentiality, copyright and IP are different things, as an employee the employer demands/owns all of these for the work you do whilst on their time.

As a consultant, Confidentiality is demanded by the customer, as is any privileged information within the work you do, copyright and IP is different as certain parts (e.g. style of the report etc) may be owned by you, but much of the content will be owned by the customer - often a contract will make this clear to clear up any ambiguity.

A contractor, as far as I understand is often considered as an employee in terms of these sort of things - i.e. all work done has been paid for specifically by the customer and they own everything, perhaps not as that isn't an area I know well, in terms of confidentiality it will always be with the customer. (it would be seen as a huge breach if you contracted for one party and then passed confidential to another.

Long time since I took advice on this, I generally work in line with the advice I was given then though; as a consultant the customer owns everything specific to their job, but I would own my style of reports/documentation/calculation methods etc.

In terms of an EICR I would see that as the confidential data and conclusions within the report are privileged, but the report format/boilerplate were mine - I would have thought similar for a contractor in this respect as you would already have the boilerplate and report format when you start.

This is all conjecture, you may well be right, but I don't believe that a contractor is considered an employee for this sort of thing. If I contracted you for some research and the secrecy of it was it important to me then I would certainly put that into a contract, so that if you gave it to anybody else you would be in breach of contract and I could prove it in court.

I do know that if I was a photographer and you paid me to take a photo, I'd take the photo and give you the printed photo or digital file, but unless it was stated otherwise in a contract I would own the copyright of the photo

 

[Julie.]

This is all conjecture, you may well be right, but I don't believe that a contractor is considered an employee for this sort of thing. If I contracted you for some research and the secrecy of it was it important to me then I would certainly put that into a contract, so that if you gave it to anybody else you would be in breach of contract and I could prove it in court.

I do know that if I was a photographer and you paid me to take a photo, I'd take the photo and give you the printed photo or digital file, but unless it was stated otherwise in a contract I would own the copyright of the photo

So good, you said it twice...

Most is definate legal advice I was given, but not about the contractor aspect, yeah that is indeed conjecture

 

[littlespark]

I wonder how much the buyer wants knocked off the price?

£10,000 maybe for possibly a £100.00 repair?


I think it was mentioned earlier, if the EICR did pull up a dangerous situation, it wouldn't be very ethical not to mention it to the present owner.

 

[brianmoooore]

I think it would possibly be more than not "very ethical" when brought up by the coroner's court.

 

[SparkySy]

That is very true and I wouldn't want to be the one in the dock answering questions about why you didn't inform them!
Unfortunately I don't know any legal people but it would be interesting to hear what a lawyer or solicitor has to say on the subject.

 

[nicebutdim]

Just a thought, but it might be an idea in 3rd party situations to make clear (in writing) that you have a legal/moral/ethical duty to inform the property owner of any dangerous or potentially dangerous findings.

Would that work?

Wording to that effect could be added to standard contracts for inspections.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I would never agree to an eicr done on my house unless I would get to see a copy.
It could very easily be falsified by the buyers electrician in order to leverage a discount mid sale.

 

[nicebutdim]

David Savery recently wrote about this very issue and has decided that he wants no more of this work.

David Savery Electrical Services Ltd. - Removal of services: "Hostile domestic" and large commercial EICRs

Removal of hostile and commercial EICRs

www.dses.co.uk

 

[pirate]

Very simply put, the person instructing the report is the owner, and the person preparing it is the author. The report is confidential.
In practice, the seller isn't going to agree to a reduction in price on the buyer's say-so that the report is unsatisfactory. The seller will want to see the report to ensure that any reduction is price is reasonable and justifiable, and if the buyer is genuine then he/she will give the report to the seller to prove he isn't flying a kite.
If the inspector discovers something that might be an immediate danger to life etc then a more difficult question arises, and how it is dealt with is up to the individual inspector to decide. Maybe he will, if practicable, remedy the defect at the time. This is beneficial to both buyer and seller. Who pays for it is another matter, if there is any significant cost involved. It is likely that a sensible seller would want the work done, and accept liability for that essential work. He can then be sure that the installation, at least in that one respect, is not dangerous, which is good for him, and also a bonus for the buyer. Not to tell the seller, and knowingly to leave him with a dangerous situation for him and his family might be deemed a breach of confidentiality in respect of that aspect of the inspection (only), but I would rather face a claim of breach then have the possibility of harm or even death on my conscience, and I am sure the Courts would be on my side in the very unlikely event that the buyer tried to sue me and show himself up for the sort of person he is. The buyer would also have to prove loss. I think when carrying out an inspection, if there is danger to the occupants, the inspector has a duty of care, and I wouldn't like to think anyone would walk away without at least informing the seller/occupant of that danger. Maybe we should look at incorporating the old-fashioned Good Samaritan clause in our contracts. There is too much breadth to this question to have a hard and fast rule, so I will leave it there.

 

[Baddegg]

I always tell the person ordering the report that any C1 findings will be repaired at they cost.....be interesting in this scenario as the person ordering is essentially paying for repairs on a house that they may never own, I think you’d have to discuss such scenarios before doing the inspection......sounds to me like it’s only being used to reduce the price so if the seller takes nothing off then it’s worthless anyway......I think legally your only inclined to inform the person ordering but ethically I don’t think I’d not tell the owner if I found anything life threatening....?

 

[7029 dave]

The easiest solution, would be any property put up for sale an EICR is compulsory, therefore any defects will be rectified by the vendor, basically the same as in the rental sector.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Home condition report anyone?

 

[pirate]

As you may know, Scotland has had a Home Report system in place for some years, and it is a completely different beast from the one trialled in England. It has largely been successful, but of course the RICS have ensured that the standard format contains limitations and exceptions which protect the surveyor who carries out the Survey section of the Home Report.
The preamble to the Survey includes this:

SERVICES Surveyors are not equipped or qualified to test the services and therefore no comment can be interpreted as implying that the design, installation and function of the services are in accordance/compliance with regulations, safety and efficiency expectations. However, comment is made where there is cause to suspect significant defects or shortcomings with the installations. No tests are made of any services or appliances.

An example of the Surveyors report might be this:

Electricity:
Accessible parts of the wiring were visually inspected without removing fittings. No tests whatsoever were carried out to the system or appliances. Visual inspection does not assess any services to make sure they work properly and efficiently and meet modern standards. If any services are turned off, the surveyor will state that in the report and will not turn them on.

The property has a 13-amp mains supply with a White Meter circuit.
Wiring fusegear is located in the deep hall cupboard.
Accessible parts of the wiring were visually inspected without removing fittings. No tests whatsoever were carried out to the system or appliances. Visual inspection does not assess any services to make sure they work properly and efficiently and meet modern standards. If any services are turned off, the surveyor will state that in the report and will not turn them on.

Accordingly, the Survey is of little use in determining the state of the electrical installation. This is fair enough, as surveyors are not qualified electricians, and it is not their job to comment on the installation, except that some will make a point of recommending testing of a clearly dated system.

As it currently stands, The Home Report is very useful as it contains a Questionnaire, an EPC, a Survey and a Valuation. However, what is needed is an EICR on top, just as is required for rented houses.

One clear advantage of the EICR for rentals is that reputable Estate Agents and Lawyers will not market a rental property and complete the lease documentation without seeing the Gas and Electrical certificates as well as some other paperwork that is not of concern here. To be clear, I am not sure exactly what level of inspection is currently required, but experience has shown that Landlords will get defects sorted if brought to their attention....or...they will go underground and use less reputable agents todo the paperwork, or do it themselves. As always, you get good landlords and bad ones. While there has been considerable success in promoting safe rental properties, rogue landlords will always exist.

 

[littlespark]

@pirate ; A “13A mains supply”?

Is that just to show surveyors don’t know what they’re talking about when it comes to services?


I bought and then sold a house a few years ago to rent out.... the home report said “bare cables at back of under stair cupboard”
They weren’t bare.... it was the back of a dry lining box for a socket in the kitchen... there was just no plasterboard in the cupboard side of the walls. Easy fix.
He also mentioned the wood burner that ran the radiators... it was even marketed by the estate agent as a positive having this burner. Got someone in to check it and they condemned it!

 

[nicebutdim]

Not sure I agree with the idea of mandatory EICRs for homes being sold, but I certainly believe that it's immoral to keep details of potentially dangerous issues from home owners when inspection is paid for by a 3rd party.

 

[UNG]

This is one of those interesting conundrums that puts you between a rock and a hard place

So you do an EICR or the buyer and you find some C1 issues, the question then is do you have a duty of care to inform the homeowner or do you just leave site and pass the results of the EICR to the buyer

Looking at the wider issue so another third party visits site to check something else for the buyer and receives a shock or is seriously injured as a result of the electrical issues you found but you only informed the buyer, you were the last electrician on site...... where is the finger of blame going to point and how is the law going to view your actions if it goes legal

I think I would obligated to inform the seller and depending on the remedial action needed if it is very minor fix it or agree a price if more major repairs are needed to make it safe

 

[pirate]

@littlespark just to confirm, I lifted that verbatim from a genuine Home Report Survey.
It does indeed show that the surveyor knows not a lot about electrical stuff...but of course he isn't an expert in that field.
I have seen surveys where the surveyor has commented that the fusebox looks very old and hanging off the wall, so checks should be carried out, but that's as far as they are allowed to go.

 

[brianmoooore]

Surveyors aren't alwaysany good at other aspects of their job, either.
Best one I ever came across was in a terraced house, where the lofts between the houses weren't separated to modern standards.
"Loft appears to contain large quantities of animal faeces (probably feral cats)"
I was intrigued by this when I went to size up the rewire for the new owners, so went too look for myself. "Faeces" were fillets of mortar holding the slates that had dropped down from the battens.
Sadly, I never did get to do that rewire. The new owners left a message on my 'phone the following week, asking if I could have a look at their washing machine. Before I had even replied, the owner had been discovered dead on her knees behind the machine with its rear cover removed. She had been trying to refit the belt on the large pulley, and had touched the live terminal on the heater element, which is typically just below the rim of the pulley.

 

[nicebutdim]

Not how I was expecting that post to end, but pretty much what concerned me about the past weekend's extractor fan thread.

 

[FatAlan]

Paid about £750 for a full survey on my current place. Produced a nice glossy brochure and was full a caveats and get out clauses. Stated the obvious with no real investigation. Missed the fact that two main roof ties were shot to bits with woodworm so ended up putting a new roof on. Went into it knowing it was a project but wondering what I got for my money on the survey.