Extending a ring

[Padraig Timmins]

Hi

I am a competent DIYer and have fiddled with elecritics, but not massively confident. However, extending a ring, in of itself, looks fairly easy.

I am adjusting a wall between two of my bedrooms. The wall is actually a built in wardrobe, which I am removing, with a view to giving some of the space to our box room (40cm), and keeping approximately 20cm for the master bedroom. This means removing the stud wall that actually separates the two rooms (which forms the back of the built in wardrobe), and moving it 40cm into the master bedroom. This wall has no electrics running through it currently.

Outside of these two rooms is the landing, where there is a single plug wall socket, which is positioned on the wall that borders both bedrooms.

As it happens the position of the new stud wall is EXACTLY where the existing single wall socket is in the hallway, so the socket will have to move, as the vertical wooden strut of the stud wall needs to go where it currently is. I don't want to lose the hallway socket, so I will be re-positioning it and changing it into a double socket.

I have attached am image of the set up I plan to pursue. My main question is about extending my ring off of the existing hallway socket, so it links to the 3 new double sockets, coming back t the existing socket to complete the ring again.

How do I best go about this, and what would I need? Looking at this page:

Extending a Ring Main | Add More Sockets - http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/Extendingringmain.htm

It looks fairly straightforward, but I would appreciate advice, as specific as is possible, given this is a forum and we are not face to face.

Kind regards


Padraig

 

[Padraig Timmins]

Sorry attached the image twice.

Cheers


Padraig

 

[Octopus]

So you are asking if we agree with the DIY doctor? No comment

Do you have any test kit?

 

[Pete999]

Oh the DIY Doctor no comment either, DON'T fiddle with electrics, it bites and can kill, get some one in to advise

 

[Pat H]

I'd get an electrician to quote for the work but ask them if you can do the prep.
They could move the existing socket and prepare for the loop extension. You could agree with them on the cable route and build the stud with one side plasterboard. drill the holes for the cable as directed by the electrician and possibly even mount the back boxes. The electrician can then come back and drop in the cable. connect the face plates and do the required tests. You can then plasterboard the remaining side of the stud.

 

[HandySparks]

I can't see why you need to move the existing socket if the new wall is on the other side.

 

[Pete999]

I'd get an electrician to quote for the work but ask them if you can do the prep.
They could move the existing socket and prepare for the loop extension. You could agree with them on the cable route and build the stud with one side plasterboard. drill the holes for the cable as directed by the electrician and possibly even mount the back boxes. The electrician can then come back and drop in the cable. connect the face plates and do the required tests. You can then plasterboard the remaining side of the stud.

Yes and who in their, no I aint gonna say

 

[Octopus]

So the op has been on, reviewed the thread and not responded........ Yet.......

 

[Padraig Timmins]

Thanks for the advice so far everyone, which, if I may sum up, is basically......get an electrician to do it. Right?

I understand that some of you are motivated by the safety risks involved in a DIYer tackling even the smallest of electrical jobs, and I would presume some are also motivated by the need to keep DIYers ignorant of even the simplest of electrical jobs to ensure a constant flow of business for electricians themselves, even if on forums like this, there is little direct opportunity to gain work (or maybe there is?).

I do, therefore, wonder what the point of this DIY forum is.

I understand electrics is dangerous, and I have never before attempted anything more complex than moving power sockets and light switches, which I have done several times, always taking the right safety precautions, and I have never had any problems. But basic electrics so seem pretty simple to me, and should be achievable by a competent DIYer who has more than just a few brain cells to rub together, given the right advice.

And if this kind of forum is not the place to get professional advice, then what is the point of it.

Extending the existing ring to accommodate three additional double sockets, which would involved: turning off the power at the consumer unit; a screw driver; un-coupling the existing cable from the existing socket; an additional 6m of cable (I would guess) to loop in the additional sockets; stripping a load of cable ends that had been cut for the sockets; and screwing all the skinned ends back in, seems to me to be closer to the simple side of electrics, than, say, replacing a Consumer Unit, which I have neither the knowledge, skill nor inclination of tackling.....ever.

What would be good is to understand what issues, if any, an extra 6m of cable might cause; are there any things to consider about the type of cable and sockets to get; are any 30amp junction boxes needed; is there in fact anywhere where one might get step by step instructions?

Thanks anyway.

Cheers


Padraig

 

[Pete999]

There is some work the average householder can do safely, what you proposed to do was/is IMO beyond that of the average Mr DIY. Got nothing to do with saving work for hard working Electricians, which I am not since retirement.
The forum endeavors to help everyone where it can, I often wonder what peoples relations/loved ones would say if the DIYer was told what to do and tragically had an accident, where would that leave the person giving the right advice to the wrong person., not sure if I could live with myself, if I had tried to help a DIYer, get a life mate nd get an Electrician in, better safe than DEAD.

 

[Andy78]

The motivation is one of safety Padraig, you are correct. You wonder what is the point of a DIY forum on here. Me too.

From a liability and a moral point of view it would be irresponsible to instruct a diyer in a task in which it was suspected they were not competent. Competence comes from being able to undertake electrical work safely, which in our industry, usually means compliance with the wiring regulations, as well as possession of experience, knowledge, and skill.

Professionals on here would have to be convinced that the person taking instruction was competent, knew the regulations, was going to follow them, and was able to test and certificate the work with appropriate equipment.

Anything less could give reason to suspect that injury to persons or damage to property may occur as a result of a poorly installed alteration.

Surely you wouldn't expect a professional tradesperson to encourage possibly dangerous behaviour ?

There are plenty of DIY based forums where you may find help with this task as there are plenty of people with limited knowledge willing to encourage others with even less. I wish you luck with your task.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Thanks for the advice so far everyone, which, if I may sum up, is basically......get an electrician to do it. Right?

I understand that some of you are motivated by the safety risks involved in a DIYer tackling even the smallest of electrical jobs, and I would presume some are also motivated by the need to keep DIYers ignorant of even the simplest of electrical jobs to ensure a constant flow of business for electricians themselves, even if on forums like this, there is little direct opportunity to gain work (or maybe there is?).

I do, therefore, wonder what the point of this DIY forum is.

I understand electrics is dangerous, and I have never before attempted anything more complex than moving power sockets and light switches, which I have done several times, always taking the right safety precautions, and I have never had any problems. But basic electrics so seem pretty simple to me, and should be achievable by a competent DIYer who has more than just a few brain cells to rub together, given the right advice.

And if this kind of forum is not the place to get professional advice, then what is the point of it.

Extending the existing ring to accommodate three additional double sockets, which would involved: turning off the power at the consumer unit; a screw driver; un-coupling the existing cable from the existing socket; an additional 6m of cable (I would guess) to loop in the additional sockets; stripping a load of cable ends that had been cut for the sockets; and screwing all the skinned ends back in, seems to me to be closer to the simple side of electrics, than, say, replacing a Consumer Unit, which I have neither the knowledge, skill nor inclination of tackling.....ever.

What would be good is to understand what issues, if any, an extra 6m of cable might cause; are there any things to consider about the type of cable and sockets to get; are any 30amp junction boxes needed; is there in fact anywhere where one might get step by step instructions?

Thanks anyway.

Cheers


Padraig

Hi Padraig unfortunately the DIY section isn't here to provide by step by step instructions on how to carry out an installation its more for little queries. There are other things that need to be considered with your installation and its not just a case of running a few cables, stripping them and connecting them up. Safe isolation, preliminary testing to confirm its a ring in the 1st place, RCD protection, testing after the work has been carried and before being energised and live testing once its confirmed its safe to energise the circuit etc, checking earthing and bonding are up to scratch...to name a few . Most DIY'ers don't have the required test equipment to carry out the necessary tests or have the knowledge/competence to do it. Hope you can appreciate this and sometimes the best advice is to get an electrician in. Kind Regards

 

[HandySparks]

You may, or may not be capable of doing a safe job. You're unlikely to have the knowledge or test equipment to prove that it's a safe job.

One question: How do you know that the existing socket is on a ring?

 

[Pat H]

I have to say I wonder at the DIY element of this forum as well.
I'm involved in lots of forums covering a whole range of activities including motorcycles and have spend decades getting and giving advice on lots of things. Including safety related elements like brakes, fuel and more.
I don't understand the standpoint of not giving advice for fear of the recipient being at risk.
Its not the giving of advice that's the danger its the receiver of that advice and what they decide to do with it.
Lack of advice could make an attempt at a job even more dangerous. So withholding advice that could ensure safety and leaving somebody to try without could place them at even more risk.
There is no shortage of information online all over the place and you do well to even see a warning at the beginning.
In my view giving advice and help is a human trait and a good one. And it relies on the receiver deciding how to use that advice and if they feel capable of applying it.

All that said this forum is operated with the assumption that giving advice to those who aren't qualified is wrong and is discouraged.
So if forum members post advice they can expect to be pulled up on helping inexperienced users if its felt to be unsafe. And as any electrical work involves electricity that pretty much rules out most help.
The trend for many topics is: A question, responses that try to extract if the poster is qualified or not. If not then it will be get an electrician and if you have indicated your area as a member you'll likely even get a local forum electrician to offer to help.
But that's the way the forum is run and as users you like it or leave.

Need help with a calculator battery and that should be ok

 

[Wilko]

... and have spend decades getting and giving advice on lots of things. Including safety related elements like brakes, fuel and more. In my view giving advice and help is a human trait and a good one. And it relies on the receiver deciding how to use that advice and if they feel capable of applying it.

Hi Pat - in the nicest way, you have spent decades gaining the experience required to interpret internet based advice on motorcycle brakes (to use your example). And at least once a year a licensed expert puts your bike through its paces to make an independent assessment of its safe functioning and any work you have done. I would not like to encourage a novice to do what you do, or to have a novice being an MOT inspector.

So I will limit the Internet advice I give to novices. For me, advice on how to complete work that would trigger a MWC is a step beyond what is safe for them. They cannot safe isolate, they cannot test and they cannot complete the MW certificate. I completely understand there will be other views, and I might change my mind too

 

[David Prosser]

"Need help with a calculator battery and that should be ok "

Unless of course it's a work !!

 

[The Ghost]

From my view point step by step instructions are not possible as each and every house is different for so many reasons. I do not know if you wiring is old, badly or well done, type of supply you have, what the circuit is, the correct cable used, earthing correctly installed, voltage, earth loop impedance, protective devices, environmental factors i.e. damp/dry hot/cool, your level of ability and most importantly, if you have a properly wired house why are there no sockets in the bedrooms already it is quite unusual. Then there is the thought, do you know about building regs and notification, how to terminate cables and then finally test the new addition to ensure it complies with regs? When you have all these questions in mind you may understand it is not without trepidation one considers carefully whether and how far to go to advise someone.
As you really asked what the forum thinks, and for advice, I think it very much echoes what the DIY Doctor said about regulations safely isolating, and appraisal of existing circuit safety and length, insurance implications, the fact it is an offence not to notify, the fact it can affect the sale of your property etc. Having said that, yes it does look perfectly straight forward doesn't it.
And Padraig, thats a bit of a low blow "trying to get work.." I'm fully booked I'm afraid. Your being offered pro bono professional advice, take it, it may just save not only your life but your loved ones. It is given with the best intentions, but perhaps not always in the most palatable way sadly.

 

[Pat H]

Hi Pat - in the nicest way, you have spent decades gaining the experience required to interpret internet based advice on motorcycle brakes (to use your example). And at least once a year a licensed expert puts your bike through its paces to make an independent assessment of its safe functioning and any work you have done. I would not like to encourage a novice to do what you do, or to have a novice being an MOT inspector.

So I will limit the Internet advice I give to novices. For me, advice on how to complete work that would trigger a MWC is a step beyond what is safe for them. They cannot safe isolate, they cannot test and they cannot complete the MW certificate. I completely understand there will be other views, and I might change my mind too

Its not often I need or get advice on mechanical things. I was a car mechanic many decades ago and have always done my own servicing on all my vehicles. Its that fact I have no issues about sharing that experience or knowledge online. If somebody asks and I know I will share. Its for them to decide if they have the skills to attempt the task.

As you say for electrical work you often need specialist test equipment like a low resistance ohm meter and Insulation resistance test equipment as well and Prospective fault measurement equipment and more.
And if they are needed and a DIYer doesn't have then they aren't equipped.

The flip side of with holding back advice is a lot of people will just find something online (more than likely not what they need or even correct) or give it ago anyway. Is it helping them to let them do it wrong, potentially unsafe?

 

[davesparks]

Thanks for the advice so far everyone, which, if I may sum up, is basically......get an electrician to do it. Right?

I understand that some of you are motivated by the safety risks involved in a DIYer tackling even the smallest of electrical jobs, and I would presume some are also motivated by the need to keep DIYers ignorant of even the simplest of electrical jobs to ensure a constant flow of business for electricians themselves, even if on forums like this, there is little direct opportunity to gain work (or maybe there is?).

I do, therefore, wonder what the point of this DIY forum is.

I understand electrics is dangerous, and I have never before attempted anything more complex than moving power sockets and light switches, which I have done several times, always taking the right safety precautions, and I have never had any problems. But basic electrics so seem pretty simple to me, and should be achievable by a competent DIYer who has more than just a few brain cells to rub together, given the right advice.

And if this kind of forum is not the place to get professional advice, then what is the point of it.

Extending the existing ring to accommodate three additional double sockets, which would involved: turning off the power at the consumer unit; a screw driver; un-coupling the existing cable from the existing socket; an additional 6m of cable (I would guess) to loop in the additional sockets; stripping a load of cable ends that had been cut for the sockets; and screwing all the skinned ends back in, seems to me to be closer to the simple side of electrics, than, say, replacing a Consumer Unit, which I have neither the knowledge, skill nor inclination of tackling.....ever.

What would be good is to understand what issues, if any, an extra 6m of cable might cause; are there any things to consider about the type of cable and sockets to get; are any 30amp junction boxes needed; is there in fact anywhere where one might get step by step instructions?

Thanks anyway.

Cheers


Padraig

Do you want to do this job in a way which ensures your own safety and the safety of your family? Of course you do, so you need to carry out work in accordance with the regulations.

The first thing you need to do is ensure that the existing installation, particularly the circuit you wish to extend, is in an acceptable and safe condition. If you start from an unsafe condition without fixing it then you can only make the danger worse.
Extending or altering an existing circuit can be a lot more tricky than installing a brand new on earth because you have to assess and deal with the condition of the existing wiring.

So the first steps of your step by step guide are to assess the existing installation for the adequacy of the earthing and bonding arrangements, the adequacy of the protectiveness devices and the presence of suitable RCD protection. Also check that the existing circuit is designed correctly, is not overloaded, has the correct size And type of cable and is not already at the maximum allowed length of cable for the particular circuit design.
You also need to carry out testing as part of this, including the continuity of the CPC, integrity of the ring circuit, insulation resistance and earth fault loop impedance.

Only once you have an accurate picture of the condition of the existing can you begin to consider the design of the alteration to the circuit.