Discuss External earth fault loop tt system in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

B

brightspark2010

Evening all could anyone please tell me the the maximum ze for tt systems the jobs entail Rec cut out fuse bs88 16a to feed 1x 30 ma rcd fuse spur for feeding socket outlet what should the max ze be please
 
According to the powers that be it is a ridiculous Ra figure of < 100 ohms.
 
if your circuit is RCD protected at 30mA, the the max. Zs is 1667. bloody joke.
 
really 1667 ohms the some are coming up like 180 odd ohms was worried but our manager said it was fine with the 30ma protection and 1667 is what he said we work to I always thought a ze on tt had to be less than 21 ohm
 
What is the Ra reading now?
 
really 1667 ohms the some are coming up like 180 odd ohms was worried but our manager said it was fine with the 30ma protection and 1667 is what he said we work to I always thought a ze on tt had to be less than 21 ohm

Did your manager not tell you that on a TT it isn't ze .... it's Ra ??

And, whatever you do DON'T get Engineer54 started !!! ;)
 
Lets give him 5 mins from now lol
 
I am still confused my zs can be upto 1667 ohm at the socket but what about my Ra from electrode to incoming supply to spur from rec fuse would tis be 21ohm or 100ohm or 200ohm?
 
I went to a job the other day to change a broken plug socket and a zs revealed a reading of 480ohms, it was on a tt but they didn't want me to do anymore as they were having an extension done in a couple of months time so it could get sorted then! I didn't feel overly comfortable leaving it but it was all protected by a single 30mA rcd and i advised them of the danger if the rcd were to fail but they didn't seem that concerned, what can you do
 
The lower the better but I seem to recall on a regs course that the preferred maximum is no more than 200ohms.
once job is complete do a rcd test with an approved meter if it trips out in the required parameters then ok.
 
6 Hours later!! lol!!


The lower the better but I seem to recall on a regs course that the preferred maximum is no more than 200ohms.
once job is complete do a rcd test with an approved meter if it trips out in the required parameters then ok.

Another Reg bible basher!! with no understanding of a TT system!!

I am still confused my zs can be upto 1667 ohm at the socket but what about my Ra from electrode to incoming supply to spur from rec fuse would tis be 21ohm or 100ohm or 200ohm?​




21 ohms is the max for sub-station earthing and the like, but you'll never see a value anywhere near that high at a sub-station.

The 100 and 200 ohm values that are thrown about by the NICEIC and BS7671 are one almighty joke, and good for basically nothing!! Always aim for a low double figure. the old accepted standard was 10 ohms, but that was with decent sized and lengths of earth rods. Just as important as low Ra values is the stability of the earth rod position(s) The deeper the better, for both stability and Ra values...
 
6 Hours later!! lol!!




Another Reg bible basher!! with no understanding of a TT system!!




21 ohms is the max for sub-station earthing and the like, but you'll never see a value anywhere near that high at a sub-station.

The 100 and 200 ohm values that are thrown about by the NICEIC and BS7671 are one almighty joke, and good for basically nothing!! Always aim for a low double figure. the old accepted standard was 10 ohms, but that was with decent sized and lengths of earth rods. Just as important as low Ra values is the stability of the earth rod position(s) The deeper the better, for both stability and Ra values...

Better late than never bonny lad!! :)
 
6 Hours later!! lol!!




Another Reg bible basher!! with no understanding of a TT system!!




21 ohms is the max for sub-station earthing and the like, but you'll never see a value anywhere near that high at a sub-station.

The 100 and 200 ohm values that are thrown about by the NICEIC and BS7671 are one almighty joke, and good for basically nothing!! Always aim for a low double figure. the old accepted standard was 10 ohms, but that was with decent sized and lengths of earth rods. Just as important as low Ra values is the stability of the earth rod position(s) The deeper the better, for both stability and Ra values...

Ok...low double figures...say 12 ohms= PEFC of 19 amps

Time to operate a 6a type B mcb.....30s
time to operate a 10a type B mcb....190s
time to operate a 16a type B mcb....hours
time to operate a 32a type B mcb....it wont
time to operate a 30ma RCD.....2-300ms max

Ra of 200-1667 ohms
time to operate a 30ma RCD.....2-300ms max

So unless you've got a CU full of 6/10/16a devices (lets just forget the 32's ,they dont matter)and are happy to wait from half a minute to several hours for one to trip if the RCD fails 12 ohms is just as 'nunpty' as 200 ohms.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Got my wires crossed I've been spouting on about the earth rod resistance.
And yes we were always told to inform dno if ra at premisis was higher than 21 ohms which in turn affected the psc.
 
@ E54
Following on from post #17. A while back I promised I'd not get involved in another TT Ra 'debate'...but the logic still defeats me. As My views are in a clear minority on here I'd like to understand...I really would.
So perhaps you could explain why a CU with all 32a OCPD devices in it and 30ma RCD protected would be good with a 'low double figure' Ra but 'numpty' with a sub 200 ohms Ra?
What does the 12 ohm Ra do that the sub 200 ohm Ra doesnt?
I'm not having a go here,or wanting to get into another pointless row.....but this still defeats me.
 
Going by your figures, you have in a way answered your own question to a point, at the very least the lower rated protective devices WILL trip!! (So the lower you get your Ra value down, the better and it's not always the chore it's made out to be!!) Maybe not in the desired times but they will trip!! Absolutely no chance whatsoever with either 100/200ohms suggested by others. Combine a decent low double figure Ra with decent bonding at the MET and your overall Zs could well improve further to trip out a 32A breaker. Now if i had driven a rod in the ground and achieved an Ra of 10/12 ohm, i'd be, without any thought whatsoever, adding another rod on top Knowing full well that my Ra value will almost halve again, and ''continue to improve''!! And we haven't even talked about system stability, that your rarely achieve with a single 1.2m rod of any size, especially in some of the soil conditions found in parts of the UK.

Most here only look directly at the Ra figure they attain at time of installation, which is fine to a point, but with a deep driven rod, that value will continue to decrease over a given time period as the soil consolidates around the rod and connections. My system for instance, was around 5 to 6 ohms mark when the overall system was completed. I am now at a sub 0 ohm value, 3 years or so later (checked/measured just last week) and my ground/soil conditions are far, far from ideal i can tell you!! ...lol!!

The only reason i can see for the old standard 10 ohm for a TT system being left behind, is the advent of RCD devices, which is all fine and dandy till the things fail for one reason or another and your left with this numpty 100/200 ohm as your earth fault protection. Which comes to the point where we DO agree, that TT systems should have an up-front additional S type protection to cater for such failures of single RCD devices.

No other country that i know of, has a standard anywhere near that of what the UK (IET) suggests, even the Yanks want top see a 20 ohm Ra, and if it's higher another rod is to be installed. (and the Yanks (god bless them) use 3/4'' 10 foot rods, not 3/8'' 4 footers as you have in the UK!!) and many more still use what we used to have, 10 ohms!! I think that is the recognised value in S Africa too, pretty sure Marvo has stated this figure in past Threads. And he, as i remember often has to use several coupled rods in his sandy soil conditions!! He still uses RCD protection, so what's so different in the UK having to comply with realistic Ra values on TT systems??
Now if all these other countries sensible standards don't or can't convince you, then just stick to your die hard support of IET's numbty 200 ohms!! lol!!
 
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