Discuss Good Luck Mr Damian Skelton (D.Skelton Electrical) in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Ive gotta tip my hat to anyone who wants to be a QS supervising others work and signing it off without either a full check of what they've done or a trust that they are "competent" to do the job and will complete it to regs!

Once he scrolls his name onto any paperwork and authorises it, then he's as much responsible for the job as if he'd completed it himself .... Mr QS you're right in the firing line for any comebacks!
 
You all seem to be set, eyes closed and helter skeltering down a path you believe is righteous, completely unaware what your actually wishing for. A clever man once said in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.....

There will be no implementation of some electrical police by scams or LA, there is no money for it. The LA bugets are being cut every year, they cant afford to look after the poor and elderly, let alone police some fictious ilegal electrical practice, that in your minds seems to be, being pertetrated at every board change.
If you have your way people, what next, the NVQ3 at present cost around 3-6 thousand? will it stop there? Once the "Training providers" realise they have you over a barrell wots next, I wonder??.........if you think this is silly look how quickly the BGB changes to Ammendment 3 the BYB and all the Guidance notes etc.
 
We are aware of what we're wishing for Zebra, most of us want an end to the gravy train whereby, for a fee, a suit who has never held a screwdriver in his or her life can deem anyone competent. Most of us want a single register set up by one organisation which will have teeth with which to bite those who are deemed competent but clearly are not.
Most want a system of individual competence, a yardstick by which everyone will be measured instead of a single organ grinder "supervising" any number of monkeys he or she decides is appropriate.
Why is it that domestic electrical systems must be supervised when commercial ones are not? The idea is ludicrous because we have all seen potentially lethal installations in pubs, clubs, restaurants, shops, takeaways etc etc which have been carried out by the proprietors of these establishments (or the clowns they have hired because they know no better or because the clowns are cheap) because it's only a few wires, right? and besides, everyone knows you need 1mm cable for lights and 2.5mm for sockets don't they?
 
......and I think you will find trev that any changes will mean parting with a lot more ££££££'s...it's the way of the world ain't it...who pays for spot checks, more training etc etc. Some good old sparks may have their 15th etc...but a more rigorous overseer will have the whole sparkie community in every few years for update training etc. All that will happen is bills go up and Dave down the pub still does work for cash...I know a Dave down the pub..ok he doesn't do CU changes but he does just about everything else.
 
Individual competence works perfectly well for Gassafe so why can't it work in our trade? We all know or know of a Dave at the pub mate, that's why I mentioned the enforcement body with teeth. France has a system whereby Dave at the pub is prohibited from carrying out electrical work and it works perfectly well there so why can't it work here.
Gassafe fees are significantly lower than anything the scams hit their members with. Why? Does it cost more to assess a spark than it does for a gas fitter? My guess is not. Do Gassafe offer NVQs? I don't think they do but you can bet your arse that the elctrical scams will be doing them soon (certainly sir, that'll be £6000 please sir. More champers Emma?)
 
We are aware of what we're wishing for Zebra, most of us want an end to the gravy train whereby, for a fee, a suit who has never held a screwdriver in his or her life can deem anyone competent. Most of us want a single register set up by one organisation which will have teeth with which to bite those who are deemed competent but clearly are not.
Most want a system of individual competence, a yardstick by which everyone will be measured instead of a single organ grinder "supervising" any number of monkeys he or she decides is appropriate.
Why is it that domestic electrical systems must be supervised when commercial ones are not? The idea is ludicrous because we have all seen potentially lethal installations in pubs, clubs, restaurants, shops, takeaways etc etc which have been carried out by the proprietors of these establishments (or the clowns they have hired because they know no better or because the clowns are cheap) because it's only a few wires, right? and besides, everyone knows you need 1mm cable for lights and 2.5mm for sockets don't they?

Cheap they are...example...Having a pint in a local club last weekend. 'Can you have a look at this newly installed 5ft wall TV, I can't find the plug' No wonder says I, they've removed the wall light and fed it directly from that. Have to have the others on for the TV to work. 'Qualified spark', supposedly....but how qualified?
 
We are aware of what we're wishing for Zebra, most of us want an end to the gravy train whereby, for a fee, a suit who has never held a screwdriver in his or her life can deem anyone competent.

No different from any qualification criterior including all of the following C&G or NVQ or HNC or HND or Degree or masters or PHD


Most of us want a single register set up by one organisation which will have teeth with which to bite those who are deemed competent but clearly are not.

Agreed, but for that to happenen you first have to decide what is competent and what is not, besides the already expensive registration fees would have to rise for a scheme to provide said police force...you gonna pay?? And as already mentioned shall we take the money away from real issues for LA to do it??

Most want a system of individual competence, a yardstick by which everyone will be measured instead of a single organ grinder "supervising" any number of monkeys he or she decides is appropriate.
I agree individual competency, but what is that?

Why is it that domestic electrical systems must be supervised when commercial ones are not? The idea is ludicrous because we have all seen potentially lethal installations in pubs, clubs, restaurants, shops, takeaways etc etc which have been carried out by the proprietors of these establishments (or the clowns they have hired because they know no better or because the clowns are cheap) because it's only a few wires, right? and besides, everyone knows you need 1mm cable for lights and 2.5mm for sockets don't they?

Oh come on domestic and most commercial electrical work is not in the relms of quantom physics, its mostly standard circuit arrangement with some simple mathmatics at most and a bit of memory and craft skill.
 
Trev mate,

what ever the weather, I hope you stick with it mate. As in your point you made in post 146.

I said it in another post a few days ago but as far as im concerned you are the commander of the spartans
 
"No different from any qualification criterior including all of the following C&G or NVQ or HNC or HND or Degree or masters or PHD"

The difference is that there is no vested interest by any of the bodies awarding those qualifications. They set a benchmark, if you reach it you get the qual, if not you fail.
Maybe you should look at the stats for how many people have failed their scam assessment or have been thrown out of their scam for shoddy work.

"Agreed, but for that to happenen you first have to decide what is competent and what is not, besides the already expensive registration fees would have to rise for a scheme to provide said police force...you gonna pay?? And as already mentioned shall we take the money away from real issues for LA to do it??"

The current minimum requirement is way too low, there is nothing to stop a milkman undergoing a 2 hour open book exam then going out and buying a few odds n sods and a couple of books then going out and working in people's homes a week or so later.

"I agree individual competency, but what is that?"

A damn sight more than sitting a 2 hour open book exam.

"Oh come on domestic and most commercial electrical work is not in the relms of quantom physics, its mostly standard circuit arrangement with some simple mathmatics at most and a bit of memory and craft skill."

I completely agree but you're missing the point. Until recently the vast majority of my work was commercial, I didn't have to tell anyone about what I was doing and no one was required to oversee it. I could have been a proper cowboy for all anyone knew. The implication is that domestic electrical systems are more dangerous than commercial ones.
 
With the proposed regs amendment the new competent will be skilled it will be interesting how that gets interpreted
 
Trev mate,

what ever the weather, I hope you stick with it mate. As in your point you made in post 146.

I said it in another post a few days ago but as far as im concerned you are the commander of the spartans

Thanks mate, I'll be asking the Spartans to start making a lot more noise over the next few days.
 
Trev, I by no means IMO am competent to even bring up my own children, but somehow i do it and neither have been arrested for rapeing cattle or rustleing women yet.....
Vested interest is, excuse the pun, interesting, in as far as one of the witnesses was a 'training provider" and unless you are of the complete niave persuasion, who has most to gain from a single register with one qualification required??

And Trev, do you really believe there are former milkmen doing domestic electrical work with only 2 hours of exam behind them? If so then this electrical work is a damn sight easier than I thought!

Commercial work, as far as you and I are talking, is a different beast. The facilities manager will have a duty of care to use only suitable qualified persons for said work and as such will be resposible for making certain that a contractor is competent and qualified for such work. Unless you believe that said milkman are also working on three phase systems with only 2 hours training...in which case I think I might change my trade to a milkman:43:
 
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I've sometimes doubted my own competence to raise children but I managed it 3 times and never killed any of them mate, not even a little bit.:)

The vested interest I mentioned refers to the way that the scams will badge anything that moves as long as they can stump up thus increasing their income and the salaries the top brass can take. they then say to all and sundry "Look how great a job we're doing. We have X thousand members all dedicated to raising standards as is demonstrated by their signing up and agreeing to our standards"
Of course there was a training provider at the hearing, it's the job of the committee to hear from all sides of the argument

Who has most to gain from a single register like I mentioned that will have teeth? The public who are basically having themselves laughed at by these people.

The commercial work I was talking about consists of the shops, pubs, restaurants etc. In a bigger place with a facilities manager then of course there's a checking and vetting procedure going on.

Do I believe there are former milkmen carrying out electrical work? Damn bloody right I do! I've seen thousands of threads right here along the lines of "I was made redundant from my job as ....... so I sunk my pay off into a course at the local Electrical Trainee factory now please tell me how to chase a wall"

You obviously think I'm wrong and you're well within your rights to think that but I'd like to hear what your take is on what the way forward could or should be.


NB none of the foregoing, or any other post, should be taken as me having a go at anyone and I'm sorry if it comes across that way. This stuff makes me really angry
 
Thanks Trev, I understand and of course it should make you angry cos it your/our livelyhood.

So what is the way forward? Well that depends on your outlook, in other words is it self interest, or is it concern for an industry/sector etc........my outlook is self preservation, and before you all attack, ask yourself first "who you are"............me, well I'm me, I'm not an electrician, thats just something I do for a living. Dont get me wrong I like it, but would I fight for it or fight for my right to make a living.....only one contender there Trev.
So if the premise is to suddenly tell me I not competent after 10 years of fault free commercial and domestic work, unless I pay out for a very expensive and useless qualification, which adds no knowledge to what I already possess, then I will fight tooth and nail against it.

I toe the line as is and pay my dues, but if Im forced to take a 'not very qualified' then I'll drop out and stay under the radar and as such will be forced not to leave a paper trail, no certs etc which may result in less tax for the Gov (they know this) just like thousands of other self employed electricians hopefully.......and you will be left with an industry mainly of newly qualified agency foder with their NVQs, and your single register with a premium cost for qualfication and entry but with no teeth or apetite to affect or even acknowledge the disenfranchised........the real answer is of course to charge a premium for your sevices and refuse to work for peanuts, stop spoon feeding the ignorant and be the best you can be.....survival of the fittest as it were and the week and poorly trained will naturally fall by the way side (believe that and you'll believe anything):yesnod:
 
In 2005, the Labour government brought most electrical work in the home under the system of building regulations, designed to ensure safety standards.

That was my favourite part - shall we start another political war? I know this forum has a heavy labour backing...(can practically hear Trev calling for the reincarnation of thatcher)

Bloody labour ;)
 
Self preservation first and foremost but when the ability to do that is happily being eroded by what are supposed to be supervisory bodies signing up anyone who applies then we should be angry and we should be prepared to stand up and say enough is enough.

The assessment/qualification or what ever you want to call it does not have to be expensive. Gas fitters pay a lot less than any member of an electrical CPS and are assessed less regularly. Their trade body is protected and it's hellishly unlikely that there will ever be another contender for their crown, there are any amount of them in our game. I even looked at setting one up myself but then thought better of it.

A system of regulation and policing of the electrical trade works in many other countries around the world and it works perfectly well at a reasonable cost to the tradesperson. Why do we need the complete mess we have here?
 
In 2005, the Labour government brought most electrical work in the home under the system of building regulations, designed to ensure safety standards.That was my favourite part - shall we start another political war? I know this forum has a heavy labour backing...(can practically hear Trev calling for the reincarnation of thatcher)Bloody labour ;)
Yes it was done under a (supposedly) socialist administration (I can't believe it's not the tory party) It was a poorly thought out knee jerk reaction however Labour don't have the monopoly on those. Anyone remember Mrs T's Community Charge or the dangerous dogs act or many other examples of that bloody woman's short sightedness?However, we've been there and done that. This is about a way forward not backwards
 
Trev, you only have to look at the last 20 years and realise that, although it could be done at a reasonable cost and in a reasonable time scale, what your asking for will be an economical opportunity for someone. You know that is the inevitability now days, especially with electricians...why? cos they wont stick together, just look how everyone attacks each other on this forum for instance.....solidarity no chance (unfortunately).

You forget that it is no longer common sense or fairness now, the uttmost importance is profit, the economy and cuts in government spending.....again what your asking for will cause lots of of people to be out of work whether rightly or wrongly and if that looks bad for the government then no chance. Policing by who? who pays for it? will you do it? for free? You said previously about informing on people...would this be a good idea?...witch hunt comes to mind.
 
Yes it was done under a (supposedly) socialist administration (I can't believe it's not the tory party) It was a poorly thought out knee jerk reaction however Labour don't have the monopoly on those. Anyone remember Mrs T's Community Charge or the dangerous dogs act or many other examples of that bloody woman's short sightedness?However, we've been there and done that. This is about a way forward not backwards
Do people still vote??? vote for what.. their all the same with different coloured badges..come on seriously!! No I dont believe anyone is that stupid anymore.
 

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