If part P were abolished

[Specialist]

To the older sparkies on the forum.
Was there so much grief about poor electrical work before part p was introduced?
Talking 20+ years ago or more?

Don't really think there was no. Don't think there's much if any improvement in safety since Part P. From what I've seen, you've still got a lot of cowboys doing domestic work. If anything more than there used to be, Doubt you'll ever stop other trades or have a go Joe's messing with Electrics.
One thing I can see it's done though, is put a good number of talented electricians out of the domestic market.

 

[FatAlan]

Classic case of government increasing bureaucracy then abstaining responsibility by farming it out to the private sector. Costs us all more in the long run.

 

[Specialist]

Classic case of government increasing bureaucracy then abstaining responsibility by farming it out to the private sector. Costs us all more in the long run.

Also loses good sparks work. The more stupid things like this, that are put in place then the more it costs Joe public.
What happens when Joe public gets hit in the pocket ? Oh yes, he's ten times more likely to try & botch it himself with some flex and cellotape or get Dave the painter from down the pub to have a go.

Yep the powers that be really put some intelligent thought into part P, NOT.

 

[Pete999]

Also loses good sparks work. The more stupid things like this, that are put in place then the more it costs Joe public.
What happens when Joe public gets hit in the pocket ? Oh yes, he's ten times more likely to try & botch it himself with some flex and cellotape or get Dave the painter from down the pub to have a go.

I wonder how the people running fast track training establishments would react to the stopping for use of a better word of Part P? would we have better training via the Apprenticeship route? Part P imo was / is a typical Government reaction, papering over the cracks they made in the first place

 

[westward10]

Recently got chatting on an annual assessment about the Domestic Installer scheme and fast track "electricians". Whilst the assessor was in agreement with most views on this forum he did say it had the benefit of keeping a check on those that probably shouldn't be doing electrical work!

 

[Specialist]

Think they'd have a baby Pete, it would be the killing of the Cash cow.
Don't think it's the Fast track training places that are the problem though, it's the whole Ill conceived idea of part P that's the problem and has been from the time Muppet brigade came up with it.

 

[Specialist]

Recently got chatting on an annual assessment about the Domestic Installer scheme and fast track "electricians". Whilst the assessor was in agreement with most views on this forum he did say it had the benefit of keeping a check on those that probably shouldn't be doing electrical work!

Sorry buddy, don't see how he thinks it's keeping a check on the people that shouldn't be doing Electrical work.
All that seems to have happened, is that the Dodgy sparks out there have gone and got an extra piece of paper to show Joe public.
You know yourself, It hasn't stopped them doing dodgy installs.

Has it stopped Dave the Painter / Mechanic / Binman from down the pub, messing with peoples electrics for his beer money ? Nope not at all.

 

[westward10]

Sorry buddy, don't see how he thinks it's keeping a check on the people that shouldn't be doing Electrical work.
All that seems to have happened, is that the Dodgy sparks out there have gone and got an extra piece of paper to show Joe public.
You know yourself, It hasn't stopped them doing dodgy installs.

I totally agree but I could see the misguided logic of it. He told me a tale of a colleague who attended three assessments for the same contractor. The first two the contractor claimed he had yet to finish a rewire he was working on whereby the assessor said this was fine we can still attend site but unfortunately there were no keys available. The third time they attended said rewire and when asked where the intake and consumer unit were the contractor did not know, draw your own conclusions.

 

[Specialist]

Just about says it all really doesn't it.

 

[Pete999]

Think they'd have a baby Pete, it would be the killing of the Cash cow.
Don't think it's the Fast track training places that are the problem though, it's the whole Ill conceived idea of part P that's the problem and has been from the time Muppet brigade came up with it.

OK but you have agree surely the scams are rubbing their hands together, the more Installers call them what you will, the scams will pass out as qualified, it's a laughable situation, just wonder what the fail percentage would be, zero I should imagine, sorry I could go on it's a pet hate of mine.

 

[Specialist]

Yes mate I do totally agree. That's why I said, they'd have a baby at the killing of the Cash cow.
There's no denying they are making a lot of money out of part P training, but like most businesses they're just exploiting a Commercial opportunity.
If the Muppet brigade hadn't dropped such a cushy little earner in their laps in the first place then they couldn't exploit it.

 

[Pete999]

Yes mate I do totally agree. That's why I said, they'd have a baby at the killing of the Cash cow.
There's no denying they are making a lot of money out of part P training, but like most businesses they're just exploiting a Commercial opportunity.
If the Muppet brigade hadn't dropped such a cushy little earner in their laps in the first place then they couldn't exploit it.

Perhaps it would pay the Govt to oversea the output, oh sorry they have the scams doing it, talk about a vicious circle.

 

[Specialist]

Over the years I've spoken to a lot of good, well qualified & conscientious sparks who go out of their way to do quality work.
A lot of them have totally shunned Domestic work since part P. As they've pretty much all said, they're well qualified to do what they do & can walk on site, Read a set of plans & Wire a factory or hospital for example and that's not a problem.
But without this stupid little part P certificate they're not even supposed to wire their own house never mind anyone else's.
Yes I know you can go the building control route, but that's an even bigger rip off.
A lot of people might not agree. But all I can see it as, is the Government screwing over the Electrical industry yet again.

 

[telectrix]

another one down to phony blair.

 

[7029 dave]

To the older sparkies on the forum.
Was there so much grief about poor electrical work before part p was introduced?
Talking 20+ years ago or more?

IMO the answer is NO.

 

[7029 dave]

everything was fine till a MP screwed a cutlery rack to the wall, piercing a cable, resulting in his daughter being electrocuted.

Yep that is about the strength of it, why we are at a place now.!

 

[Dave OCD]

I think that putting Part P to one side for a moment that standards in all trades are generally a bit lower than 20 or 30 years ago, I see a lot more work these days that although may well be compliant doesn't have that nice neat finish to it , there's more of a 'that'll do' attitude ? Cables aren't clipped neatly, wiring inside accessories and CUs seems just rammed in etc etc... This can't be entirely down to different generations as I've seen rough work done by very experienced Sparks and very nice work from youngsters, is it pressure to compete and rush everything for the sake of profit ?

 

[charlie76]

I don't know why everyone gets so up in arms about Part P and having to register with a self certification body. It is the case in most trades, windows FENSA, plumber GAS SAFE coal stove HETAS, . At least you are not a window fitter, imagine having to register with FENSA just to be able to put 6 screws in and a bead of silicone and say it complies with Part L/K.

Its not about proving that you have x, y or z skills in reality or do you have a JIB card, in fact its nothing to do with your qualifications, skills or experience at all. It is that the LABC cannot cope with the amount of building control notices they would have to deal with so they farm it out to the likes of NAPIT, NICEIC, ELECSA etc. In doing so they gave the registration bodies certain criteria to inspect self certifying companies by which is why you get an annual inspection.

So in answer to the OP, if part P were abolished, why not abolish all the approved documents and allow anyone to build anything and if it collapses like in countries where they don't have an equivalent set of building regulations hey ho, don't worry at least we don't have to moan on the forums anymore about Part P, Scams etc etc etc.

 

[UNG]

It must be the only safety measure that has been brought in and had the effect of lowering the existing previously higher standards, at the same time making lots of money for various bodies, all funded and paid for by the workers
It has caused confusion with public and trade and demeaned what was once a respected trade which has now become a add on for other trades

Sorted that for you

I don't know why everyone gets so up in arms about Part P and having to register with a self certification body. It is the case in most trades, windows FENSA, plumber GAS SAFE coal stove HETAS, . At least you are not a window fitter, imagine having to register with FENSA just to be able to put 6 screws in and a bead of silicone and say it complies with Part L/K.

Its not about proving that you have x, y or z skills in reality or do you have a JIB card, in fact its nothing to do with your qualifications, skills or experience at all. It is that the LABC cannot cope with the amount of building control notices they would have to deal with so they farm it out to the likes of NAPIT, NICEIC, ELECSA etc. In doing so they gave the registration bodies certain criteria to inspect self certifying companies by which is why you get an annual inspection.

So in answer to the OP, if part P were abolished, why not abolish all the approved documents and allow anyone to build anything and if it collapses like in countries where they don't have an equivalent set of building regulations hey ho, don't worry at least we don't have to moan on the forums anymore about Part P, Scams etc etc etc.

I don't see any problem with having to register if a standard is met the problem is that standard has been lowered to the extent that it is becoming meaningless due to many industry issues

Part P was supposedly introduced to increase safety of domestic installations but it's effect cannot really be measured due to the introduction of the 17th edition a few years later and the RCD / RCBO everything regulations that would skew any survey to prove otherwise

The whole problem though cannot be placed at the doors of the scams the C&G must accept a lot of the blame for the current situation the C&G 2382 exam has caused the biggest issue by creating the illusion that pass it are you are a spark when it was designed as an additional qualification for previously qualified sparks
Then again what is the 2382 an exam to prove you can read a book and understand it and part with hundreds of £'s for the privilege

The problem is that Part P is here to stay because Clancy and co will not allow change you only have to look at the last parliamentary review when Clancy and co weren't getting their own way and circumvented it by going directly to the government minster and cutting a deal in order to maintain their balance sheet and for Clancy to improve her bonus pay

 

[Specialist]

It's not the fact that LABC's & Schemes are making a lot of money out of part P. Part P was pushed through as a Kneejerk reaction to an accident (Yes we know it's become a hugely profitable cashcow for some). It was, according to the government going to improve safety in Domestic electrical work.
Well as most of us said at the time, it Doesn't work.

An example: A friend rang this morning & asked if I'd take a look at the wiring in his bungalow, 2 problems:
1) When they turn on the shower in their 2nd bathroom, it trips the RCD.
Shower was installed 6 months ago but not used as bathroom needed tiling, decoration & a rad fitted.
2) They just took down the glass shades on kitchen lights that were fitted by the same sparky & found bare wires.
So I went & had a look, couldn't see any signs of a DP switch anywhere for the shower, so asked why there wasn't one.
Answer: There is 1 but it's in the garage, he couldn't get into the bathroom ceiling so fitted the pull switch there as it backs on to the bathroom. So to use the switch you go through the house (5 doors) go down the side alley, across the back yard & into the garage.
The tripping is caused by cross connection in the CU.
When I looked at the kitchen lights, the was about 6 - 10mm of bare wire sticking out of each terminal.
No Heat resist sleeving on L / N wires but this had been used instead of GY sleeving to cover the earths.
Each light is attached to the ceiling with a single screw.

The butcher who did this is Part P & NIC registered, this is just 1 of the domestic butchery jobs I've seen since part P. Improved electrical safety ? I think not.