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Hi all. Got a query could do with a bit of advice off other sparks who are qualified supervisors. i am working for a company that is registered with the NICEIC. We are currently have a contract doing ecrs to properties as requested by client and then after that the properties are having boiler and rad replacements throughout. My lads are then altering wiring to new combi wiring from y plans, old combis or altering s plans to adopt new boilers and conducting minor work certs. to certify.
On some properties there old bs4293 rcd main switch with bc3871 mcbs. A few rcds have failed on the ecrs and they have also put this on the minor works my thinking is i can not sign these off as there is insufficient additional protection.
i am in shall we say a debate with my managers about signing off these sheets.
Any advice would be appreciated.
 
Hi all. Got a query could do with a bit of advice off other sparks who are qualified supervisors. i am working for a company that is registered with the NICEIC. We are currently have a contract doing ecrs to properties as requested by client and then after that the properties are having boiler and rad replacements throughout. My lads are then altering wiring to new combi wiring from y plans, old combis or altering s plans to adopt new boilers and conducting minor work certs. to certify.
On some properties there old bs4293 rcd main switch with bc3871 mcbs. A few rcds have failed on the ecrs and they have also put this on the minor works my thinking is i can not sign these off as there is insufficient additional protection.
i am in shall we say a debate with my managers about signing off these sheets.
Any advice would be appreciated.

The work your lads are doing needs to comply with current regs. so if they are using an installation method, installing sockets or installing in a location that requires RCD protection then you cant just note it down on the minor works cert saying faulty RCD as its a requirement to have RCD protection. In this situation you only have a few options IMO and that's to replace the RCD or install an RCD somewhere that covers the extent of your lads work if its required which could be a RCD fused spur for example.

If the work they are doing doesn't require RCD protection due to type/installation method/location then you could note on the minor works about the RCD but I would make it extremely clear that your work doesn't fall under the requirements for RCD if its not required.

Are they doing earthing and bonding if its not done or up to scratch?
 
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Cant see how any heating controls would require rcd protection as usually in cupboards or trunking. Unless you are chassing in roomstats... as moderator @Leesparkykent says id be more concerned about main bonding.
 
Isn't changing an RCD or fitting a new protective device considered an alternation and therefore not minor works? It requires an Electrical Installation Certificate.

Also the old BS 4293 ae no longer compliant with BS 7671 and should be replaced if major alterations are taking place.
 
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Earthing and bonding all ok. circuit that supplies fused spur for boilers are off either socket circuit or its on its own circuit. So needs RCD protection for that circuit. Or as only altering boiler control wiring which is in the fabric of the building not need RCd protection?
 
Additional protection by RCD is required for cables buried in the fabric of the building at a depth of <50mm....or for socket outlets intended for general use.
It's unlikely that boiler control wiring will fall into either of those scenarios.
 
what had been written in the job spec usually these jobs have a electrical consultant involved.What work is exactly being done ? are you just adapting the existing wiring. if you are installing new wiring in walls then yes rcd aditional protection is needed.
 
Additional protection by RCD is required for cables buried in the fabric of the building at a depth of <50mm....or for socket outlets intended for general use.
It's unlikely that boiler control wiring will fall into either of those scenarios.
't
And if you don't need to add an RDC or change the Protection device it can be covered by the minor works cert
 
Isn't changing an RCD or fitting a new protective device considered an alternation and therefore not minor works? It requires an Electrical Installation Certificate.

Also the old BS 4293 ae no longer compliant with BS 7671 and should be replaced if major alterations are taking place.

As long as the required tripping times are met upon testing then devices to BS4293 are suitable for use and there is no requirement to replace them.
 
No requirement to replace them under inspections if they function correctly but they don't meet the current requirements due to the disruption and danger caused by nuisance tripping. So if major works are done then better to replace to be compliant. Its what you consider to be major works of course.
 
No requirement to replace them under inspections if they function correctly but they don't meet the current requirements due to the disruption and danger caused by nuisance tripping. So if major works are done then better to replace to be compliant. Its what you consider to be major works of course.

I'm not sure I follow. How does a RCD to an earlier standard cause more nuisance tripping ?
 
Its because its an RCD on the main incoming feed as was done in those days when they were so expensive and new.
It doesn't cause more issues its just that any circuit fault turns off all the power to everything and nowadays we design installations to divide and protect circuits so we only use a few at most in a fault condition.
 
I often have to wire in new boilers to older installations. As long as I'm using an existing spur then I'm happy to issue a minor works with the lack of RCD protection noted on it.
Always check the gas / water bonding and main earth, these have to be compliant (so 6mm bonding is acceptable in some situations)
 
I often have to wire in new boilers to older installations. As long as I'm using an existing spur then I'm happy to issue a minor works with the lack of RCD protection noted on it.
Always check the gas / water bonding and main earth, these have to be compliant (so 6mm bonding is acceptable in some situations)

That's correct as long as the additional wiring wouldn't require an RCD under BS 7671
 
Its because its an RCD on the main incoming feed as was done in those days when they were so expensive and new.
It doesn't cause more issues its just that any circuit fault turns off all the power to everything and nowadays we design installations to divide and protect circuits so we only use a few at most in a fault condition.

That is an issue to do with the arrangement of the division of circuits and not with the standard of RCD as you suggested in post #4.
I have seen BS4293 RCDs used as a main switch, used to protect socket circuits only in a board, used to protect single circuits ..etc.

You can't say a standard of RCD does not comply because you expect to see it in a particular application.

For the purposes of the OP's work in these cases, the division of circuits for the entire installation does not need to be considered.
 
It's more inconvenient to have one rcd trip the entire installation but no requirement to change them unless you were changing board.

With regard to the op if it's a like for like replacement with no new electrical wiring then I don't see why it would HAVE to be changed. I'd at least inform the client that it's not working and suggest perhaps they get it sorted.
 
Isn't changing an RCD or fitting a new protective device considered an alternation and therefore not minor works? It requires an Electrical Installation Certificate.

Also the old BS 4293 ae no longer compliant with BS 7671 and should be replaced if major alterations are taking place.

Regarding changing an RCD - I would happily do that using a MWC

As for the BS 4293 - like to share the information on which you have made this statement? - as I'm not sure I agree with you!
 
Well 314.1

(i) avoid danger and minimize inconvenience in the event of fault

(iv) reduce the possibility of unwanted tripping of RCDs due to excessive protective conductor (PE) currents

And 531.2.4 An RCD shall be so selected and electrical circuits so subdivided that any protective conductor current which maybe expected to occur during normal operation of the connected laod9s) wll be unlikely to cause unnecessary tripping of the device.

I can't lay my eye on the reg that states that circuits should be divided so that an RCD trip leaves some circuits live for safety (that's why split boards are more popular now so lighting can be divided)

The specifc info on the BS 4293 I took from Chistopher Kitchers practical guide to inspect and testing. Not BS7671 but he's normally spot on.
 
Well 314.1

(i) avoid danger and minimize inconvenience in the event of fault

(iv) reduce the possibility of unwanted tripping of RCDs due to excessive protective conductor (PE) currents

And 531.2.4 An RCD shall be so selected and electrical circuits so subdivided that any protective conductor current which maybe expected to occur during normal operation of the connected laod9s) wll be unlikely to cause unnecessary tripping of the device.

I can't lay my eye on the reg that states that circuits should be divided so that an RCD trip leaves some circuits live for safety (that's why split boards are more popular now so lighting can be divided)

The specifc info on the BS 4293 I took from Chistopher Kitchers practical guide to inspect and testing. Not BS7671 but he's normally spot on.

The OP is altering one circuit in each instance. No account needs to be taken of the way the present installation is arranged and divided as long as all the regulations and safety precautions for the alteration are adhered to. Any existing RCD should be tested, to the relevant parameters for its standard, if is necessary for the alteration being undertaken.

BS4293 is not listed in the current version of BS7671 as the harmonised standards of BSEN61008-1 and 61009-1 have superseded it. Provided such a device still meets the required times and operation it is perfectly suitable for use with an alteration or addition.
 

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