Neutrals at switches

[Robinson]

In fairness to Mrenigma I do seem to recall from my apprenticeship...(30 yrs ago!) that neutrals in switches were always considered bad practice.....however there has been a general change of view on this in the trade AND in the NIC...mainly I believe because nobody has ever been able to come up with a reason why it's bad practice.

Yeah same here, i was never actually told at college it was bad, although never taught to do. BUT on site the boys always said only if really needed as bad practice. That was 20years ago at BBC TV studios. Still I go with Mrenigma, there has been from what i have seen a change of views probably because there isnt actually any regs to say why, and i think due to the type of fittings and designs we are seeing today it has become alot more practical. I myself do what every way suits the job. All the new builds i have done in last 2 years for few companies have done N's at Sw. everytime. nobody said a thing, the workmanship on these jobs was floorless, really really good tidy instals. So i cannot see and didnt see one reason to think otherwise, and certainly wouldnt judge a sparks but using this technique. As long as it was not detrimental to the safety and reliability of installation.

 

[Electricalserv]

If you look at my posts you will find likes on them so others obviously do find them useful. More than can be said for your posts. Hy not take your own advice and jog on if you think the thread is dead and leave it to those with a serious input.

Well done you....You've made a few friends then. Great

 

[Robinson]

LOL ! Bit late on this one arent I ......

 

[Hawk81]

Well done you....You've made a few friends then. Great

Its not about making friends but rather making a decent post that is relivent to the thread.

 

[TPES]

This is a very interesting topic, I can't believe I've missed this one...

I can't believe it's even being spoke about as a genuine issue? how could this possibly be a problem to anyone, there is far more benefits to having the N at the switch than in the ceiling fitting. Common sense to take N to switch if you ask me..

One example is an outside light to be added at the back door in kitchen, far easier to get my L & N off the switch on the backside of the door to feed my new light than have the carpet and floor boards up above trying to find the neutral from a light fitting..
Only time i take L & SL only to switch is when I'm on a rewire and fishing down wall to switch as to not damage wall with a chase.

 

[Des 56]

This is a very interesting topic, I can't believe I've missed this one...

I can't believe it's even being spoke about as a genuine issue? how could this possibly be a problem to anyone, there is far more benefits to having the N at the switch than in the ceiling fitting. Common sense to take N to switch if you ask me..

I smiled when I read that post

Tpes, if you had been with this thread since it started, you would know how those words could re ignite the storm again

 

[Deleted member 9648]

When a person involved in a debate starts resorting to personal insults it's a sure sign they know their argument has long since become obsolete and they dont have the balls to admit it.

 

[TPES]

I smiled when I read that post

Tpes, if you had been with this thread since it started, you would know how those words could re ignite the storm again

lol, only just found this topic, not read every reply so missed a lot, I don't want to re ignite any storm, I'll say no more... But surely this is what a forum is all about.

 

[andyb]

Whatever you rambling maniac, I was merely trying to continue this dead thread with abit of jest, yet you and IQ bite. Sad really

Get a life bud

Your posts are very helpful aswell. For the fact they have been done and done and done. Move on the threads dead.

What are you talking about...Ignore....

Well done you....You've made a few friends then. Great

That's that argument won then.

 

[aptsys]

30 pages?!

 

[Knobhead]

Well I hate to interrupt the mud slinging. But is there a switch plate with a neutral terminal on the market? I could do with one.

 

[Hawk81]

I think its already been said its hager.

 

[Guest 004]

Well it is has been fun, when I saw that there no reg against it, I kind of thought well ok then. The debate that the switch has more room is non sense, as a tester I hate it when I open a switch and loads of cables jump out that have been connector blocked. As for the wall lights not having enough room, just chase in a relevant deeper back box, you guys do put back boxes at wall lights right?
As for the argument that it is easy to extent a circuit from a switch, well you would have to chase the wall for the new cable, as with the light, just find the ceiling light that has the feed, if its a wall light, then that would have to re chased.
I am going to big site next and will ask the apprentices how they get taught this at COLLEGE.

IMO I would not make it my first choice, but would use it.

so ding ding round 3
lets make today the final round........

without saying any names I am quite surprised by some of the comments here by some of the members that I had a lot respect for, and because of that respect I have keep quiet, mainly because there is no reg against it. Makes me wonder if indeed that there was a reg against it in the past?

:0

 

[Guest 004]

I think its already been said its hager.

yes but ONLY hager!

 

[High Tower]

Isn't that what L2 is for on 2 way switches, for grouping neutrals together???

 

[Guest 004]

Isn't that what L2 is for on 2 way switches, for grouping neutrals together???

at last your starting to get it

 

[UNG]

I seem to remember that I was always taught "Best Practice" and that alternative methods were not classed as "Bad Practice" but not conforming to "Best Practice" ( Don't get any ideas E54 there are a lot of points made about your comments you haven't answered). All the large sites I have worked on all have their own rules on what is their best practice. It is a fact that this industry has radically changed in the last 30 - 40 years with the changing wiring methods, technolgies and materials and maybe the term "Acceptable Practice" should be the term used now to encompass this

This thread seems to have an Orwellian 1984 flavour to it of looped neutral at switch bad looped neutral at light good. While there may not be a neutral terminal at the switch position does the alternative argument follow of looping the live at the fitting when there is no terminal is wrong and why add another JB for the hell of it more joints means more potential faults. From a safety point of view in the domestic setting lives looped at the switch provide a safer installation for the lesser skilled householder who insists on changing a light fitting.

If all installations were the same then this trade would become boring

This thread is beginning to go the same way as a debate on climate change / global warming as nobody has yet to justify why you can't joint a neutral at a switch the same as the CC / GW lobby can only justify their claims with dodgy stats with no substance

 

[SMB]

The phone rings in the SMB household.


Ring Ring!!...Ring Ring!!



SMB......"Hello, SMB speaking"

Mrs.Miggins....."Hello SMB, its Mrs.Miggins here, I was wondering if you could help me?"

SMB....."I will help you if I can Mrs.Miggins, what is the problem?"

Mrs.Miggins....." Ive had a lovely new extension built and would like a couple of lights put in it"

SMB....."That won't be a problem, what type of light fittings were you thinking of Mrs. Miggins?"

Mrs.Miggings....."My grandmother has left me 2 chandeliers in her will, I would like to use these."

SMB....."That shouldnt be a problem Mrs.Miggins, what type of roof does your lovely new extension have?"

Mrs.Miggins...."Oh, its one of those new modern flat roofed thingys."

SMB....."That will be okay, how would you like the chandeliers switched Mrs. Miggins?"

Mrs.Miggings....."I would like them switched separately please SMB."

SMB......" Okay, no problem Mrs.Miggins, Thursday afternoon okay?"

Mrs.Miggings....."That will be great, see you on Thursday afternoon, goodbye"

SMB....."See you then Mrs.Miggins, goodbye."





SMB goes into panic mode, he starts scratching his head.

Flat roof....... grannies 1920's chandeliers...... 3 plate wiring..!

SMB starts to get a headache.

Then...eureka....SMB remembers the wise words of a man who helped him learn about wiring.



SMB decides to take a mains feed down to the switch and then he will only have one twin at each chandelier! There will be no need for a JB in the flat roof or connectors rammed up into the flat roof space either. He gets the BRB out and is unable to find any regulation to say that taking a neutral down to the switch is a problem.

SMB shakes his head, he decides that he is not lazy, however, this method of wiring grannies chandeliers is the best method for the job.






SMB's headache fades away and he relaxes.




Job's a good 'un.

 

[Hawk81]

Well according to some the job is not a good 'un. you will have committed the crime of bad practice. I dont see how but E54 and many others think so. Hopefully they will finally enlighten us. Oh wait E54 says its bad practice but he does it for outside lights etc so I am confused now????

 

[Robinson]

What is the difference between a connection terminal in a ceiling rose and a connection terminal on a termination block? i believe they do exactly the same job dont they. Both have a BS Standard. Both would be accessible. So cant see the fuss myself, and as far as having a Del boy and Grandad moment (if ya get me) with a 1920's Chandal der dooche ! I would go for the grief free approach. Why make life harder for yourself if well within the boundaries and scope of BS 7671.