No CPC in bathroom - class 2

[uksparks]

Hi,

just looking for for a bit of advice

i changed a board yesterday for a house I have been working on in their kitchen.

i came to test the bathroom lights in the downstairs room bolted on the back of the house with flat roof to discover that there is no CPC at the light or pull switch, they are both class 2.

I'll be honest, this is not a problem I've come across before and not 100% sure which way to go with it.

the gas and water are bonded, there is supp bonding in the bathroom.

the electric shower has s CPC, all circuits in there are RCD protected.

my question is, would you say it is acceptable to leave it with no CPC as its class 2? Or do I need to earth it despite the fact the fitting doesn't require it.

my thoughts are that being a bathroom it should, but as I didn't do it... But anyway I was thinking of leaving as it is as the fittings are class 2 and don't need a CPC.

 

[davesparks]

I would say it is unacceptable to leave it without a cpc, because it does not comply with the requirements of bs7671 and the idea of putting a label on the CU and relying on an RCD is a nonsense dreamed up by the niceic and their ESC brand which does not comply with bs7671

 

[uksparks]

I would very much like to see it have a CPC, but equally would you say it's not actually going to make the slightest difference as the pull switch doesn't need one, and the batten lamp holder, again doesn't need one.

it would be a total biatch of a job redoing it.

I would reslly ally like to avoid putting an earth in if I can.

i don't 100% know what the correct thing to do is, as I have only changed the CU and not actually put that wire in, if it was any other room I wouldn't bat an eye lid.

 

[davesparks]

I know what I was taught as an apprentice, and that is that on encountering such a situation the correct thing to do is explain it to the customer that it needs to be rectified. And if they point blank refuse to have it rectified then you have to consider whether you will accept the liability and do the job anyway or if you walk away.

 

[Risteard]

I don't see how it being a bathroom is relevant to the fact that a cpc must be terminated at every point of wiring.

 

[uksparks]

I have pointed it out to them, I've got to go back to do other bits, I'll try to convince her it needs doing.

going back to the point about the fitting not actually needing a CPC, how is it actually going to make the slightest difference actually adding a CPC other than it having a CPC within the cable which doesn't need to be there as I didn't put it in and it's going to a fitting that doesn't need it?

im not trying to avoid doing it but would like to know what rule exactly in the reg book that I would actually be contravening.

 

[Risteard]

going back to the point about the fitting not actually needing a CPC, how is it actually going to make the slightest difference actually adding a CPC other than it having a CPC within the cable

It's not the cable that requires a cpc - it is every point in the wiring.

 

[uksparks]

I don't see how it being a bathroom is relevant to the fact that a cpc must be terminated at every point of wiring.

It it doesn't have to be there, ok if it was a new circuit yes, but you are actually allowed to even extend a twin cable with no CPC (I think) not that I would personally.

i have changed boards in houses that do not have an eRth in the lights, it's fine, the city was labelled correctly with correct warnings, all fittings were class 2.

 

[uksparks]

It's not the cable that requires a cpc - it is every point in the wiring.

yes but if it was done prior to that rule then no... Surely? So long as class 2 etc etc

 

[davesparks]

I have pointed it out to them, I've got to go back to do other bits, I'll try to convince her it needs doing.

going back to the point about the fitting not actually needing a CPC, how is it actually going to make the slightest difference actually adding a CPC other than it having a CPC within the cable which doesn't need to be there as I didn't put it in and it's going to a fitting that doesn't need it?

im not trying to avoid doing it but would like to know what rule exactly in the reg book that I would actually be contravening.

The reg is the one which says that when ADS is used the cpc must be terminated at every point.
You are going to sign a certificate presumably stating that the protective measure of ADS has been used in the installation, if you know that it is not fully compliant with the requirements of ADS then where do you stand in terms of liability?

 

[davesparks]

It it doesn't have to be there, ok if it was a new circuit yes, but you are actually allowed to even extend a twin cable with no CPC (I think) not that I would personally.

i have changed boards in houses that do not have an eRth in the lights, it's fine, the city was labelled correctly with correct warnings, all fittings were class 2.

What do you mean by labelled correctly with correct warnings? There are no 'correct warnings' or labels according to the regulations and reliance on RCDs in this situation is prohibited.
There is a bodge dreamt up by the niceic which suggests that a label and RCDs are acceptable but that won't count for anything should anything happen and you appear in front of a judge as it has no basis in the regulations or any safety practices from the last 50 odd years.

 

[Risteard]

you are actually allowed to even extend a twin cable with no CPC (I think) not that I would personally.

Only if you still terminate a cpc at each point of wiring. As I said, it's not the cable that requires a cpc - it is the point in wiring. You could pull a 4mm^2 single green/yellow between points if you preferred.

i have changed boards in houses that do not have an eRth in the lights, it's fine, the city was labelled correctly with correct warnings, all fittings were class 2.

BS 7671:2008 (2015) has no provision for any warning notice which allows you not to have a cpc terminated at every point of wiring.

 

[Risteard]

yes but if it was done prior to that rule then no... Surely? So long as class 2 etc etc

But you have altered the circuit/installation, e.g. by installing a new distribution board.

 

[Hobsoni]

Electrical Safety First - Best Practice Guide 1

Convince the old dear to have you install a CPC, if she refuses then as an absolute last resort subject to verifying all of the steps listed as apart of the risk assessment laid out in the guide you 'could' put a warning label on the panel and be done with it.

 

[uksparks]

I'll just earth the light, I'll run it back to something, like I say I'm not trying to get out of it, just wondering where I would stand with it.

as for the one I did with no CPC in lights, what's done is done, I'll be honest I was under the impression that if it was all class 2 then so long as it's got a label in the city stating that such a circuit is not suitable for metal fittings etc then it was ok.

i have only ever changed one board under those circumstances, it's not something I have done more than the once.

ill eat my hat and say I clearly don't 100% know then.

ill have a read up on that bit in the regs.

 

[uksparks]

I suppose my thoughts were that it's kind of not actually going to achieve anything by putting an earth to a light that's not actually going to be used.

im sure you can see where I am coming from.

 

[uksparks]

It's kind of like bonding a plastic water pipe.

 

[colshaws]

Taken from best practice guide 2
5.2. BS 7671 does not require existing circuits to be upgraded to current standards in order for them to be connected to the outgoing ways of the replacement consumer unit.
it then goes onto say
As stated in Section 7.2.5, where it is proposed to replace a consumer unit but the customer is unable or unwilling to accept either the cost or disruption of the remedial works, a risk assessment should be undertaken. This is for the purpose of advising the customer as to the level of risk that would exist on completion of the proposed work. A disclaimer does not absolve the installer from responsibility.

I

 

[Hobsoni]

Well, interestingly the best practice guide admits to the installation of a circuit without a CPC as being a non-conformance with BS7671.............so I'm puzzled as to how they can then deem it an option. Especially when one is required to issue a British Standard test certificate on the said works!

 

[uksparks]

Taken from best practice guide 2
5.2. BS 7671 does not require existing circuits to be upgraded to current standards in order for them to be connected to the outgoing ways of the replacement consumer unit.

it should give a regulation number next to it hopefully it that's an NICEIC guide?