Discuss Ring Final Circuit advise query in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

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S

Singer

Hi guys, Would be interested to hear your thoughts on the following.
I had to change a CU in a hoarders property in January which proved to be quite a challenge. CU was damaged with accessible live parts so I had no choice. Clutter was extreme with hardly any access to some rooms so couldn't get to some of the sockets to test. Found no continuity in live conductor of ring final circuit so decided to protect with 20 amp type B 60898. Also found one double socket showing red light on loop tester so told them not to use it and stuck warning tape all over it.
Issued certificate but included copious notes in the "departures" section and the "comments on existing installation" section to reflect what I'd found.
Also followed up with a very strong letter advising that fault with socket circuit needed to be found as a matter of urgency.
Heard nothing from her but then caught the same bus as her cus she only lives round the corner so I stressed the urgency so she invited me back last week to investigate problem. Bearing in mind the whole family are hoarders, each room is packed to the gunnels with crap, she had cleared enough for me to get floorboards up above faulty socket to try to find problem which to her was a major step forward. Found really badly terminated junction box under floor with a broken neutral which was why instrument was showing red light. Fixed that and tested socket again which now gave healthy reading. However live conductor was still broken in the ring so I said that break also needed to be found. I looked for the break within the confines of the room she had cleared but it wasn't in that room it was further along the circuit and she wasn't prepared to let me disrupt any more of her junk, so I replaced floorboards, re-tested circuit and left.
Now the interesting bit. I was unsure whether I needed to issue another certificate following the repair of the fault on the lounge socket so I contacted NICEIC tech support and told them the whole story as above and asked for their comments.
The guy I was speaking to said I didn't have to issue another cert but needed to send a very strongly worded letter advising the customer of a code 2 situation to the socket circuit. Code 2 is "potentially dangerous" - needs immediate attention. So I asked why is the circuit potentially dangerous - it's wired in 2.5/1.5 T&E and is now protected by a 20 amp mcb so is essentially a big radial circuit with no danger of overload.
He directed me to Best Practice Guide 4 Issue 3 which says on page 14 as an example of a code 2 condition "a ring final circuit having a discontinuous conductor".
The previous issue of this guide specifically stated "a 30/32a ring final circuit" but this has now been revised to include any ring final circuit regardless of the size of the protection.
Having already told the customer the circuit was now safe following my recent repair to lounge socket she was surprised to receive a further letter from me advising the code 2 situation. She phoned to ask what the "potential danger" is and I struggled to answer her.
The only thing I could think of was "Someone may come along and assume the ring is healthy and replace the 20 amp protection with a 32 amp"
Your comments please!
 
Split the ring into 2 radials protected by 2 x 16amp protection devices, or if there isn't a spare way in the CU you'll have to connected them into the same device.

Not ideal but I think it is the best you can do
 
Hi Malcolm,
That's exactly what the tech support guy said and to be honest I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
In order to split the ring into 2 circuits you've got to find the break in the live and break the neutral and earth as well to produce 2 independent circuits. But that's exactly the problem - she won't let me continue the search to find the break, and if I did find it I wouldn't break the other 2 conductors, I would restore the continuity of the live and upgrade the protection to 32.
 
good idea, malc., but he would need to find the break so as to split the ring . once found, would be just as easy to repair as a ring. problem, as he says, is access .
 
Unfortunately then you have to do as the NICEIC suggests ( I hate agreeing with them lol) if doing an EICR code it a 2, but by the looks of things though you was doing a CU change, so why even mention codes ..................unless you did an EICR.

Personally I think your worrying over duly, IMO you have down rated the protection device so the cable can not be stressed, you have documented what you have done and outlined what needs to be done in order to restore the installation as per design and after all we are not the electric police.

I'm sure if you ask the NICEIC again they will advise you disconnect the circuit and leave it isolated, and in respect that is perhaps the safest thing to do, but this is the real world and you have to decide really isolate, or leave connected...........................I know what I would do
 
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crossed posts.

if the socket outlets are accessible, performing a R1+R2 at each socket might narrow the fault down, but test as you would 2 radials rather than cross connecting at the CU.
 
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Yea thanks guys,
I suppose what I'm really asking here is - why is it described as a code 2? As you say malc I've downgraded the protection to match the circuit so why is it still described as "potentially dangerous". The customer asked this question and I couldn't answer.
 
The BPG whilst usefull, is not something you should follow blindly.
Yes the new version is better than the old, insofar as a number of recommendations have now been placed in the code C2 section rather than the code 1 section.
However it still doesn't advise any code at all for lack of RCD protection to circuits of a location containing a bath or shower.
At the end of the day, it still boils down to the Inspector's opinion as to what code should be applied.
The situation as you describe it in your OP is fine in my opinion, and doesn't warrent a code.
Although I would still make a comment.
 
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The only thing I can think of in NICEICs defense is that there is evidence of a fault in the circuit which still remains. If that fault is a terminal on the back of socket not done up then use of that socket could be a danger if wires move and create a high resistance, regardless of protection rating.
 
Hi singer , if you do as others have advised and split into 2 radial c/cts at some point you are going to get a call saying that 1 or more of the sockets now no longer work :) and that is where your live is broken!!
 
Thanks Adam but surely you're not proposing I put one leg into one mcb and one in another knowing the neutral and earth are still connected together?
 
Hi singer , if you do as others have advised and split into 2 radial c/cts at some point you are going to get a call saying that 1 or more of the sockets now no longer work :) and that is where your live is broken!!
Having thought about this I can't follow your logic. No matter where the break is if both legs are "live" every socket will still be fed from one way or another so won't reveal the break.
 
no with this being an electricians forum and you doing work in a customers house! i would at least assume you would have the competence to know what turning a ring, into 2 radial circuits would be?? you clearly show a lack of knowledge and or experience by struggling with this concept. and also the fact you didnt advise the customer of any potential problems that could arrise
 
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no with this being an electricians forum and you doing work in a customers house! i would at least assume you would have the competence to know what turning a ring, into 2 radial circuits would be?? you clearly show a lack of knowledge and or experience by struggling with this concept. and also the fact you didnt advise the customer of any potential problems that could arrise, and now you have left a cable rated at 26 amps on a 32 amp breaker well done!
Adam, if you took the time to read my OP carefully you will realize I've done no such thing. I've left the circuit protected by a 20 amp device and so the circuit is healthy. There is little to be gained from getting offensive. I was merely pointing out that the whole problem revolves around the lack of access to anywhere in this property due to customers clutter so for you to suggest splitting circuit into 2 radials "at some point" is a little off the mark as I would have to find the break in the live, then break the neutral & cpc as well to produce 2 independent circuits.
If I could find the break I would restore the ring!
How did you arrive at the conclusion I "didn't advise the customer of any potential problems that could arise"
What potential problems should I have been informing her of?
 
You may have had success if you had fed the circuit with one live at a time,taking earth loop readings of the sockets which were fed by that live
The 2 highest readings may have narrowed down the search (spurs not withstanding) to the 2 sockets that needed cables disconnected to form 2 radials

Having said that,unless people have been in these obsessive hoarder properties, they may be unaware of how absolutely impossible doing the possible can be
 
You may have had success if you had fed the circuit with one live at a time,taking earth loop readings of the sockets which were fed by that live
The 2 highest readings may have narrowed down the search (spurs not withstanding) to the 2 sockets that needed cables disconnected to form 2 radials

Having said that,unless people have been in these obsessive hoarder properties, they may be unaware of how absolutely impossible doing the possible can be


Absolutely true Des. Couple that with the fact they had a very rude and offensive lodger in one of the bedrooms that took offense to me or my tools or my van being there in the first place made this a nightmare job!
 
hey im just trying to offer some friendly advice, and then im being told of shared neutrals . my suggestion was to seperate the ring into a cpl of radials in the board, and then i would of disconnected both ends of a leg in 2 accessible sockets splitting the ring not ideal but still as safe in my opinion but with the added bonus at some point the customer will discover sockets not working and will have no choice but to rectify.
 
Absolutely true Des. Couple that with the fact they had a very rude and offensive lodger in one of the bedrooms that took offense to me or my tools or my van being there in the first place made this a nightmare job!

Reality of life and the conditions that we sometimes have to operate in,it sometimes make a mockery of the perfect world that the regs are played out in and the minds of perfection of those who write them

The Niceic can only trot out official guidlines,reality sometimes conflict,you may have done all that could be reasonably be asked of anyone in that situation
 

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