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liamnewbury

Does anyone else feel that alot of skill has been taken out of our trade, things are becoming easier and easier to do. The days of using metal conduit and single in houses is long gone. If the standards were alot higher would we be worth more money and would there be less rogue traders about?

opinions please
 
yes I sort of agree,when I started my apprenticeship in the mid eighties we did alot of banks and office blocks,steel conduit,steel trunking and fire alarms in MICC.Every light fitting had a ceiling rose above it,none of this daisy chain lighting,no busbar track,only raised floor in computer rooms(and they were tiny).
But on the other hand things change,jobs have to be finished quick,tighter deadlines etc.Manufacturers have developed and improved products ,so some skills get lost(when was the last time you did MICC) but new skills get learned.I enjoy learning new skills it keeps me interested in the job that I love.
 
It used to be that an electrician would and could undertake a full range of tasks,but nowadays it seems that a section of the trade has been sliced off (Domestic installation)and many people specialise in that discipline

There is no problem with that other than, rouges and chancers have therefore been handed a nice opportunity, to sneak past the traditional routes and/ or be accepted by the very low Government competence standards, which has harmed the trade terminally,

Also by the rediculous defined scope level
Can you imagine electricians being granted a licence to plumb in only the cold pipes or fit only the cupboard doors,we would soon be doing it all would we not,and that is what is happening to degrade the trade

Some of the rouges are able now to be legalised rouges unfortunately
 
Luckily in the channel islands we dont have any of those "train to be an electrician in five minutes" training courses,and the only way is the five year apprenticeship way(so far).
I didnt do any domestic work until I was way out of my apprenticeship,but luckily for me I worked alongside experienced sparkies who had.Its one thing knowing the theory (which you cant learn in five minutes)but experience is priceless IMHO.
There will always be rouges in every trade,unfortunately.
 
Think there is a difference between rogues, and a loss of requirement to have skills. If there are easier, quicker ways to do a job safely then I'm all for it. The rogues dont have less skills, they just have less knowledge and scruples. I'm happy to run a chaser up the wall rather than show off my raggling skills!!!!
 
I work in a factory as a maintenance technician. We still use a lot of steel conduit and trunking.
Too expensive and too time consuming for a domestic installation I would say. For an industrial
installation it is made to last and protect.
 
So, Let me see if I understand this discussion.
You are saying that because I have signed up to a course provider, which is not a local colledge, doing evening classes, nor do they provide an 'apprenticeship' (I'm 45 years old, so that would be out of the question) that upon completion of my course, which is all C&G certified, that I will be a 'ROUGE TRADER' incapable of installing anyting correctly or safely?
I trained as an electrician in the Royal Navy (Although we were called Weapons Engineer Mechanics then) and after serving my time, I came into the public sector but decided thst I wanted to do other things, Apparhently I was not qualified to be a 'real electrican' anyway,
I now have the opportunity to get back into the trade, and the only way i can achieve this is through one of the (so called Con-artist) training courses, I have a family to support and mortgage to pay the same as you guys so full time education is not an option. When I finish the course I will be qualified to a good standard and I know that experience is everything but with people like you around the experience can never be gained or if we set up on our own we are the lowest of the low con-artists and Rougue Traders. I know that these people are out there ripping the public off , but please don't tar everybody with the same brush, give some of us a bit of credit for the fact that we are capable and want to do a safe and efficient job in whichever sector of the industry we decide to work in.

Sorry if this offends anyone but to be frank, I'm offended by the attitude of some members of this forum. :mad:
 
ive been a spark about 5 years now, i came from the automotive industry and done one of the rogue trader courses like some of you call them, and to some people they are, i knew i wasnt going to be practiclly qualified so i went to work for an electrical contracter for six weeks for free, anyway he kept me on and give me a full time job, six months later he had to pay people off,he let go 3 lads
who had beyween 10 -20 years experiance each, or time served as you say, but he kept me, so its swings and roundabouts.
 
Theres always been rouges in the electrical trade long before the short courses.I apologise if anyone has been offended by any of my posts,no harm intended.
 
Hi Carl
I have also just finished my course, and have found the training to be first rate. i do not pretend to know as much as you time served guys. But after 30 years in the construction industry, starting out as a bricklayer and attaining a city and guilds advanced craft. then going to university, gaining a HND in Building Studies and a BSc in construction management. in the last ten years ive been in project management Supervising so called time served sparkies and snagging there work. i have a better understanding than alot of time served electricians. i do hope the people who are involved in the trade i have worked hard to join are not as bigoted as it appears on the thread.:(
 
This is exactly the point I was making. A lack of the old skills does not mean that someone is a rogue trader. Nor do I suspect that the majority of members of this forum feel this way. I have read a lot of posts in a short time on here, and most guys are extremely helpful, and indeed supportive of people with less knowledge than them.
 
This is exactly the point I was making. A lack of the old skills does not mean that someone is a rogue trader. Nor do I suspect that the majority of members of this forum feel this way. I have read a lot of posts in a short time on here, and most guys are extremely helpful, and indeed supportive of people with less knowledge than them.


I agree, sorry I was not having a go at anyone in particular, and I find this forum and the people on it to be really helpful and friendly for the vast majority of the time, I have gained a lot of really usefull information from here, it's a great site! I may not be the most prolific poster, and will I hope be able to offer more to the site as confidence, knowledge and ability increase, but I do visit the site almost daily, and enjoy reading ALL the threads.

However times change and technology improves, it's not just the electrical industry, it's every industry which is in this situation.

Carl
 
yes I sort of agree,when I started my apprenticeship in the mid eighties we did alot of banks and office blocks,steel conduit,steel trunking and fire alarms in MICC.Every light fitting had a ceiling rose above it,none of this daisy chain lighting,no busbar track,only raised floor in computer rooms(and they were tiny).
But on the other hand things change,jobs have to be finished quick,tighter deadlines etc.Manufacturers have developed and improved products ,so some skills get lost(when was the last time you did MICC) but new skills get learned.I enjoy learning new skills it keeps me interested in the job that I love.
Read your reply and noticed you have MICC experience.
Is there a good way to join the old copper sheath MICC?
Just drilled through some and if possible would like to make good.
Many thanks
Johnc
 
Part of what I posted
rouges and chancers have therefore been handed a nice opportunity, to sneak past the traditional routes and/ or be accepted by the very low Government competence standards, which has harmed the trade terminally,

I think some are rightly offemded by my and others comments, because as in my case,the term rouge wasn't meant to refer to Trained electricians, whether they are apprentice trained or more modern intensive trained and gaining the practical skills on the job

My own reference was to the extra low entrance criteria that the schemes have accepted and who have now been slated by the government for doing so
I had in mind the ultimate in danger in our trade,the guy around the corner who potched a bit
That same guy can now do a multi guess regulations exam, have no training in the actual trade and become accepted and registered
Once the relevant certificate is gained,practically, it means automatic entrance to the schemes

I have heard of nobody whatsoever who has been rejected.others may have,but they would be few and far between

I will apologise to those of you who have trained in another industry or the forces and have done their best to retrain for another sector of electrics,those comments were not for one moment intended to include fellow electricians from other industries
 
Bottom line.
Its all about competence, and competence is NOT knowing what you can do.
It's about knowing what you can't do.

A rogue is more about a persons character,nothing to do with qualifications or experience.
Like any trade or life in general you can only get out what your prepared to put in.
There is no substitute for training and experience both practical and theoretical knowledge run side by side in our trade.
As long as people work within the limitations of quick fix courses I have no problem with them whatsoever, after all we all need to make a living.

But, and its a big but, know your limitations and know them well, otherwise you run the risk of endangering life and property and that's not acceptable at any cost and applies to us all. ;)
 
Sorry mate,gonna have to have a pop at you, please dont take it personally. The multi tick boxes as answers for the exam are impossible to pass unless you know the answer. Every course I have been on requires at least a 90% pass rate, over up to 40 questions. The other three wrong answers you could tick are so close to the real answer in their content that you ahve to know the answer to succeed. An average course involve probably 8-ten exams, and of course the final biggie, a national on line Gola. Your allowed to take it if you have passed all the other internal exams. Thats why you probably say everyone passes, well all I can say is that thats everyone that is allowed to take the exam. Many people have to go back for lots of resits on the internal exams, and can re sit the final as well. On my course there were eight of us, two passed, but the remaining 6 havetaken over ayear to get to apoint where they can pass. some stil havent. It is not as easy as you think. I will say however, that if you ever get your hands on a copy of the final exam, do not be dismayed at how easy itis and the fact itsopen book. The books in the final are no use to you at all. The internal exams are not open book, and are very difficult in comparison to the final.
I was once involved in training (another field) and these exams are to explore your knowledge. Try to pass one with no knowledge of the subject, and it is actually not possible. (except the jtml health and safety exam !!)
 

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