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  1. Dave the spark

    Dave the spark learning all the time

    Location:
    Glasgow
    A question, if you please...

    When testing an existing installation BS 7671 states that it should be tested to the current edition of regs, and that doesn't necessarily mean the installation will be dangerous if wired previous to that edition.

    My question is, how should you code for no RCD protection for additional protection? Is this, in all cases, a code 2 observation?

    I'm still gaining experience in testing and inspection and currently sitting my 2394/95. So, in short, no snide answers:D
     
  2. Risteard

    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    That is a judgement call for the inspector to make. Personally I can see circumstances where it would warrant a C2 observation and also circumstances where it would warrant a C3 observation.
     
    hightower and 7029 dave like this.
  3. Dave the spark

    Dave the spark learning all the time

    Location:
    Glasgow
    That was my thoughts on it tbh. So for instance, where I might C2 a shower without RCD protection I'd probably only C3 a bathroom light fitting/switch. I'm talking purely domestic here btw.

    I wouldn't mind your thoughts on coding socket outlets without RCD protection, in my mind I could see reasons for C2, supplying portable outdoor equipment. Do you code the circuit as whole or the sockets individually which would more likely to be used for such?

    Thanks for the reply.
     
  4. Des 56

    Des 56 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Gliese 581C
    [QUOTE="Dave the spark

    I wouldn't mind your thoughts on coding socket outlets without RCD protection, in my mind I could see reasons for C2, supplying portable outdoor equipment. Do you code the circuit as whole or the sockets individually which would more likely to be used for such?

    Thanks for the reply.[/QUOTE]


    I would suggest your thoughts on various coding for your "own" perception of the dangers of each situation is exactly the way to proceed with the gaining of experience of test and inspect
    If the decision making is allied with competence that would seem to make the ideal inspector

    regards the socket circuit question
    I think the circuit has a whole would now have to be coded
    Although at the time of original installation,the likely to supply outdoor equipment may suggest an individual outlet needing RCD protection
    The improvement you recomend should bring the whole of the circuit to current requirements
     
  5. spinlondon

    spinlondon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Harlow Essex
    Hmm, you want to test to the current edition, then state you can see reasons to use code 2 for something that isn't a requirement in the current edition, and hasn't been a requirement for over 10 years?
    Also, unless the installation is either Horticultural or Agricultural, there is not now and never has been a requirement for a socket circuit to be provided with RCD protection.

    To my mind, any observations should make reference to a particular Regulation that is not being complied with.
     
  6. westward10

    westward10 Electrician's Arms

    Top Poster Of Month

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    The absence of rcd protection needs a minimum C3 entry and as already stated this is down to the inspector. I agree I would C2 the socket being used for equipment out of doors but would C3 the shower.
     
  7. Murdoch

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
  8. Dave the spark

    Dave the spark learning all the time

    Location:
    Glasgow
    Why on the domestic eicr inspection schedule then, does it ask for provision of additional protection by a 30mA RCD for all socket outlets of rating of 20A or less?
    I'm genuinely interested and keen to learn but I think your post had an air of pomposity about it. Apologies if I've taken it the wrong way.

    Thanks for the replies fellas, I realise coding has a degree of ambiguity and personal preference. I'm just trying to be clear in my head as to a consensus for certain observations.
     
  9. Murdoch

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    That's why the best practice guide comes in handy as you can point customers at it......
     
  10. Dave the spark

    Dave the spark learning all the time

    Location:
    Glasgow
    I'll have a read at that tonight while I'm studying for my 2395 written. I've passed 4/5 exams so far for the 2394/95 so this is my last one and I'm hoping for a first time clean sweep
     
    Wilko likes this.
  11. Wilko

    Wilko Gorillas are Great Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Berkshire
    Good luck Dave !
     
  12. Dave the spark

    Dave the spark learning all the time

    Location:
    Glasgow
    Cheers Wilko, I'll update this thread after Wednesday. Although it'll probs be another 7-8 weeks before I get a result
     
  13. DPG

    DPG Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    S Yorkshire
    I'm confused by your post here I must admit.
    Daz
     
    Dave OCD and westward10 like this.
  14. westward10

    westward10 Electrician's Arms

    Top Poster Of Month

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    You aren't alone there.
     
    Dave OCD and DPG like this.
  15. Dave the spark

    Dave the spark learning all the time

    Location:
    Glasgow
    Thank God. Thought it was just me!o_O
     
    westward10 and DPG like this.
  16. Vortigern

    Vortigern Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    England
    Hi, yes well this is, as described by STROMA tech support, "a very grey area" He said at the ELEX show he spoke with NIC, NAPIT and others and no one agreed at all on classification of codes. We had to make the same judgement on EICR for commercial buildings and discussed it on this forum. I nearly got a new ****hole ripped in the process. I am pretty thick skinned so didn't worry about it too much. There are pretty well no RCDs throughout four large buildings which finally we classified as C3 throughout. But there were good reasons for this. I have (I think) attached an analysis of Best Practice guide IV the green bits are about RCDs. Just parsed all the mentions into a spreadsheet then to PDF.
     
    Hellmooth likes this.
  17. Risteard

    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    One thing to remember about the Best Practice Guides (aside from the fact that it's merely the opinion of the Electrical Safety Council (campaigning under the name Electrical Safety First) and as such only a guide) is that they only deal with domestic installations.
     
    DPG likes this.
  18. Vortigern

    Vortigern Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    England
    A very interesting point indeed!
     
  19. spinlondon

    spinlondon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Harlow Essex
    As far as I am aware, it does not specify 'all sockets outlets' in the inspection schedule.
    My understanding, is that it asks for:
    Provision of additional protection by RCD not exceeding 30mA:
    Socket-outlets rated at 20A or less, unless exempt (411.3.3).
    The reason it asks for this to be checked, is because the current edition of the Regulations requires all LV socket-outlets rated at 20A or less to be provided with 30mA RCD protection, except those labelled or otherwise identified as being for specific items of equipment.

    Perhaps there is a pomposity about the post?
    This could be because to my mind, any report should be accurate and specify exactly what (if anything) is wrong.
    For instance in the scenario you proposed in your OP, my observation would be something like:
    Lack of RCD protection for socket-outlets as per BS7671 Reg. 411.3.3. Code C3 or C2.
    I would not make an observation regarding the lack of RCD protection for socket-outlets which could reasonably be expected to supply portable equipment outdoors, as there is no longer such a requirement.
    I would also not make an observation regarding the lack of RCD protection for socket circuits, unless I was inspecting an Agricultral/Horticultral installation.
    I would most certainly not make the observation that I have seen made by some: "No RCD in Fuse Box. Code C2."
    The reason I have put code C2 or C3, is because my choice of code would depend on whether the installation complied with the requirements at the time of design/construction.
    If it did not comply, code C2.
    If it did comply, code C3.
     
  20. Risteard

    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    I'm sorry but that is a nonsense. How can you suggest that one identical non-compliance is more/less dangerous than the other simply because of when it was done?
     
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