What are the basicas of fire alarm install rules... really

[Steve2381]

Hey all.
I am a fully qualified sparky - 30+ years. Recently started working as project manager (my knees are shot!) for a security company doing mainly CCTV, intruder and now.. fire.

The MD cannot be told anything. He has designed a few systems (he has design experience - but his qualifications have expired). I have told him to get that sorted straight off.

But, we have sent a couple of lads off to NICEIC on a fundamentals, commissioning and maintenance course for fire alarms. We still need to get on the installation course.
All that seems to have done is put the frighteners on the lads.

MD insists its all easy.. just google the regs and we don't even have to comply to BS 5839 if we say we are not installing to that standard (rolls eyes).

So... today we look at a business premises (store) and he has designed a system with no detectors in the storage warehouse, only break glass units. he baffles on about how its a cat3? zone or something and therefore doesn't need sensors. I have no idea and don't pretend to know.
All I know, is its got to be right.
Part of his quote is to convert the old analogue system to a new addressable one, but to use the old cabling.
I pointed out that we may have to ensure that cabling is installed correctly. He says... its old, so we can mark it down as an exemption to the regs.
Surely if we re-use it on a new system, we should ensure its correctly installed.

Being a commercial shop, does it involve building regs?

I understand that as long as we are competent installers, then we can fit the system. As long as it complies.

FAR too many points to fall foul of here and I am really not happy about it. He thinks I am being awkward and rocking the boat.

Any thoughts?

 

[westward10]

How have his "qualifications" expired. A warehouse may not require automatic detection but systems should be designed and installed in compliance with BS5839 Part 1 and it is impossible to say from a distance whether his judgement is correct.

 

[Steve2381]

Not sure. It was him who said that he had let his design qualifications lapse?
Do the systems 'have' to be installed to BS5839? He seems to think that its optional.

 

[westward10]

The fire alarm Regulations form part of the Regulatory Reform (fire safety) Order 2005. The UK Government also recommends systems should be installed and maintained in accordance with the relevant British Standards that being BS5839. Ignoring these Standards would show a lack of due diligence should a matter arise which results in proceedings in a court of law.

 

[davesparks]

It's a British standard and so will be non-statutory (as I understand it but am happy to be proved wrong)
Much the same as BS7671 is non-statutory and you don't 'have' to comply with it.

However it will be referenced in laws, and be deemed to be a method of complying with those laws.
Not complying may invalidate insurance, premises licensing and will almost certainly land you in deep trouble should anything go wrong.

This is a system designed to save lives in a fire, the BS has been developed over many years by experts following research, experimentation and practical experience, choosing not to comply with it as at least your minimum standard defies all common sense.

 

[Steve2381]

This guy defies all common sense. He rattled on about how it was him who goes to prison if something happens (I am sure he is not the only one)... what kind of thinking is that?
I am going to stick to my guns and insist we get a third party fire alarm consultant involved so that we are correct from the start.

 

[Billsays]

Get yourself BAFE accreditation

Fire Detection & Alarm Systems | Scheme No. SP203-1 | BAFE - https://www.bafe.org.uk/schemes/fire-detection-and-alarm-systems-sp203-1/

Do the full 3 day course, a sparks with 30 years experience will find it a doddle..... I did

Then you will know all about designing/installing and commissioning all grades of FA systems.

 

[davesparks]

This guy defies all common sense. He rattled on about how it was him who goes to prison if something happens (I am sure he is not the only one)... what kind of thinking is that?
I am going to stick to my guns and insist we get a third party fire alarm consultant involved so that we are correct from the start.

Perhaps explain to him that the problem is not that he goes to prison if 'something' happens, the problem is that for him to go to prison then the 'something' that happened is that one or more people died.

 

[tazz]

Its a dangerous game to play, and a few sparks are doing prison time for getting things wrong. BAFE is the best way to go. Design is not hit or miss, it is a precise set of rules, and mathematical equations

 

[Steve2381]

Hello all
OK. I have taken over this project to try and get it installed as safely as possible.
I have an installation method question for part of this small warehouse we are wiring.

I will see if I can explain the issue.
Imagine a 13m wide warehouse, and inside part of that warehouse, they have build some single storey offices using studwork timber.
These offices have timber walls, wooden joists and then a suspended ceiling underneath that timber joist frame.
Fibreglass insulation stuffed between the joists. So, if you look above the offices, you see open joists like a house loft.

How do you install FP cable over this area?
I know it should not be simple clipped, but if I installed something like a 2" tray fitted to the top of the joists, then surely that isn't much better than clipped cable. It would still fall in the event of a fire (once the joists burnt through).

Ideally, you would suspend the tray I suppose from the actual ceiling of the main building, but that is a further 5/6 metres up and very hard to achieve.

What is the maximum distance a fire alarm cable can depart from say a tray run to a smoke head unsuppported? By that I mean, if the tray ran along the rear brick wall, could the cable then leave that tray and lay on the ceiling for 2m?

Cable ties on horizontal tray.... steel or standard nylon?

Hmm

 

[Pete999]

Hello all
OK. I have taken over this project to try and get it installed as safely as possible.
I have an installation method question for part of this small warehouse we are wiring.

I will see if I can explain the issue.
Imagine a 13m wide warehouse, and inside part of that warehouse, they have build some single storey offices using studwork timber.
These offices have timber walls, wooden joists and then a suspended ceiling underneath that timber joist frame.
Fibreglass insulation stuffed between the joists. So, if you look above the offices, you see open joists like a house loft.

How do you install FP cable over this area?
I know it should not be simple clipped, but if I installed something like a 2" tray fitted to the top of the joists, then surely that isn't much better than clipped cable. It would still fall in the event of a fire (once the joists burnt through).

Ideally, you would suspend the tray I suppose from the actual ceiling of the main building, but that is a further 5/6 metres up and very hard to achieve.

What is the maximum distance a fire alarm cable can depart from say a tray run to a smoke head unsuppported? By that I mean, if the tray ran along the rear brick wall, could the cable then leave that tray and lay on the ceiling for 2m?

Cable ties on horizontal tray.... steel or standard nylon?

Hmm

Guide to Fire Detection & Alarm Design BS5839 - http://www.premierfiresystems.co.uk/guide-to-fire-detection-alarm-design-bs5839/
Any help?

 

[marc8]

two places booked on a course in October, 3 parts FIA design, install & Commission, although we don't do the design work or the commissioning of the fire alarm system we have this worked undertaken for the company, company we use has over 20 years worth of experience in the field invaluable. we are doing the course to understand more & make sure we are compliant but even after that we will still use the same company in the same way we do now but hopefully if we spot something they have missed or even unsure we still got them as backup.
will say this for the firm we use very professional & even passed on their membership discount to us, so instead of booking one person I booked two for the same money.
the help is out there if you want to find it!

 

[westward10]

You cannot leave the cable unsupported for 2m. As for fixing on the tray will they be on it or below it.

 

[Toneyz]

He sounds like my old boss.

 

[Pete999]

He sounds like my old boss.

Who marc 8 or Westy?

 

[Toneyz]

Who marc 8 or Westy?

No I hope not the O.P.'s MD.

 

[Pete999]

No I hope not the O.P.'s MD.

OK Ta Ant

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

It's a risky business to get into if you are not up to speed with the correct standard. My company do quite a bit of Fire Alarm work and are BAFE accredited. I do a bit of work on them aswell, I do not have much knowledge of the British Standard although I only work on L2 conventional systems which is quite basic and I understand this system only. All my work is checked off by a competent supervisor.

 

[Steve2381]

I don't want to get involved. But he is insisting and just keeps throwing out the competent person stuff.
All cables would be on top of the tray, but its the actual supporting of the tray that is the issue above the wooden ceiling.

I know about using metal fixings (not rawlplugs) and all that stuff.

 

[Richard Burns]

From what you describe there is no fire resistant material on the ceiling of the offices, though I would have expected plasterboard to be fixed to the underside of the joists.
If this is the case then any cable passing above the suspended ceiling would need to be adequately supported. However if it is run on top of the joists and fixed with fire resistant fixings then I would have thought that this would be supported sufficiently since once the joists have burnt through then there are other problems beyond the cables hanging down.
A plasterboard ceiling or roof joists have structural integrity in a fire up to a point where the building is compromised if they have failed.
I cannot state this as definite compliance with the standards only my interpretation but I do feel it should be sufficient to be above the joists or on tray above the joists.
Though this does assume the offices have been built to standard as well!