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Discuss What is a 'dwelling'? in the Electrical Forum area at ElectrciansForums.co.uk.

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  1. SparkyChick
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    SparkyChick Making a banana smoothy for my fave gorilla Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    South Wales
    Business Name:
    SparkyChick
    I plan on giving them a call in the morning and asking them to email me with their answer so I have it in writing.
     
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  2. Murdoch
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    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    Sounds like a HMO to me.........
     
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  3. sparksburnout
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    sparksburnout Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Notts
    Now now.
     
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  4. SparkyChick
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    SparkyChick Making a banana smoothy for my fave gorilla Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    South Wales
    Business Name:
    SparkyChick
    Could be, but as I mentioned, the first told her she needed the whole place rewiring and she simply can't afford it. It doesn't look like it needs a full rewire as despite some dodgy bits which are more down to implementation and a lack of understanding, the bits I have seen of the installation seem to be in good condition, but I've not tested any of it yet and that could of course find a whole raft of issues. The second one, unless she's spinning me a yarn, did her out of a significant portion of her budget.

    As for being short of work, I'm a fledgling business and I'm no where near capacity yet so I'm not in a rush to turn down work but at the same time, I'm not in a rush to get in over my head and get myself burned which is why I'm kind of bouncing stuff around on here to you guys who are far more experienced than me. My gut feeling is that because her English is poor and she's not a native some people have tried (and it appears succeeded) to take advantage of her. And yes, the idea of walking away had crossed my mind, but only from the perspective of I don't want to get in over my head in terms of any rules and regulations (like the emergency lighting and the fire alarm). On the practical level it's a fairly straightforward installation, the largest I've been asked to work on thus far for sure, but still relatively simple compared to say the installations in some of the offices I've spent a large portion of my adult life in.

    From a business perspective, it would be much easier to go in there all guns blazing "it's all s**t rewire it" and charge her an arm and a leg for the privilege. The problem is if she's not got the money to do that nothing will change. I'm just trying to put some thought into how to improve it incrementally on a limited budget without limiting the options for future improvement and without spending money on stuff that could actually be temporary as a result of improvement in the future.

    Aside from some small items (like accessories that need replacing due to damage), the biggest safety issues are the fact the main supply cable is T+E, runs more than 3m with no overcurrent protection at the origin and is possibly too small, there is limited RCD protection and the poor state of the emergency lighting which I'm looking in to.

    Anyhow, thanks for all the comments and suggestions on the original question. Defo the best bet is a call to building control, I'm going to start with a 'what if' scenario and ask a few questions about what would happen if they didn't know it was a hotel and see where we go from there. I'll post an update about the dwelling/not a dwelling situation when I have an answer from my LABC. The rest of it, comments and thoughts are welcomed :)

    Thanks all
     
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  5. snowhead
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    snowhead Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Mildlands
    No, it's NOT a dwelling.

    The permanent occupants, or are they, as staff change regularly in hotel / catering sector, do not have any exclusive area they can call Home.

    They have no Tenancy rights as they don't stay in the same room permanently, I doubt they have a tenancy agreement that would stand up.

    If their employed ceases, they'll be out the same day.
     
  6. sparksburnout
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    sparksburnout Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Notts
    Kin hell it must be grim working in the Hotel trade! If I was one of the poor sods I think I might call it home, but maybe not electrically.
     
  7. sparksburnout
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    sparksburnout Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Notts
    OK, well worded. In the case you have very eloquently outlined above, I would get my trainers on and look for less stressful and financially secure jobs. When you are not a fledgling business, as you put it, you won't give this sort of opportunity house room.......
     
  8. rolyberkin
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    rolyberkin Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Chelmsford
    Without teaching you how to suck eggs, don't lose sight of the fact that you are running a business not a charity, be very careful about how you are paid for work and materials on this one and don't undertake more work labour wise than you can afford to lose! In my limited experience when someone tells you they haven't got a pot to **** in,it's usually because they haven't got a pot to **** in!:)
     
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  9. Vortigern
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    Vortigern Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    England
    Business Name:
    F.H. Electrical
    How often have I heard "...I can't afford that..." I think I would start by offering an EICR which would highlight the problems in a rational and logical way. I usually offer to deduct the cost of an EICR from any repair work arising from the condition report. From there you can work out a schedule of repairs replacements and costings. It costs what it costs. If the person is running a business they either bite the bullet or not. I guess from what you have described that the condition of unseen wiring is probably bad as well. So sure you can patch and mend but really it can be as near as expensive as a rewire. You could fix a load of apparent problems and miss a serious one and guess who is going to be blamed? A condition report will give you a truer idea of what this "poison chalice" of work offer is really about and a better idea of how to proceed and advise. You will better know the condition of the cabling unseen and pick up stuff that is not apparent visually. Just saying in order to stimulate ways to look at it all. After all who knows the client may get the money once she has a definite goal to find figure wise?
    In any event from what you are describing if she has been advised regards defects there is a legal obligation on her from EAWR and HSA to maintain equipment and electrical installation items in a safe condition. At least if you as a professional tell her what exactly is wrong she can be seen to be taking the right steps toward understanding and resolving these responsibilities and acting in a manner compliant with law and regs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  10. snowhead
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    snowhead Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Mildlands
    Unless it's for a Holiday or new ipad or new car or new clothes...



    View attachment 35192
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  11. bigspark17
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    bigspark17 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    wales
    Good question about the fire alarm & el's #sparkychick shame no1 has answered you on that. As far as im aware periodically testing of fire alarms and el's can be undertaken by any competant person which is insured to work on such systems, obviously a sound understanding/experience and courses would help to demonstrate your competancy in such work. This is a part of work that most sparks will stumble accross when on site doing other works and for the customer often much easier to have one trade person/team undertaking eicr/el's/fire alarm at the same time.
     
  12. westward10
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    westward10 Ugly kids what a disappointment. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    See #12.
     
  13. bigspark17
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    bigspark17 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    wales

    Says nothing about what anybody needs to carry out periodic inspection of fire alarms or el's!!
     
  14. westward10
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    westward10 Ugly kids what a disappointment. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    OP stated not being fully conversant with the requirements this is why I suggested this.
     
  15. sparksburnout
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    sparksburnout Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Notts
    Says the man on his mega pension........
     

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