240v Fan in zone 1

[Jmagee]

Hi folks new to this but have a question . What are the circumstances that have to be met to fit a 240v fan in zone 1 . I have read that it's acceptable if the fan is ipx4 rated and is on a rcd. I've read that if the manufacturer states the fan is suitable for zone 1 and rcd protected then it is also fine . I have read that it has to be rear cable entry (hidden) with any double insulated fan on rcd then it's also fine . Then on the other hand I have heard 240v fan in zone 1 is a no-no . Does anyone know it would be really helpful

 

[Jay Sparks]

Well, the manufacturers instructions are statutory, so follow them. What type of fan is it? Have you provided a fan isolator? Does the MI require it to be down rated to a 3 amp fuse?

Jay

 

[Richard Burns]

A 230V ventilation fan in Zone 1 must be suitable for that zone according to the manufacturers, it must have a minimum degree of protection of IPX4, (if there is the likelihood of high pressure water sprays such as jet washing then the minimum protection would need to be IPX5), no external switch is permitted in the zone but if there is an internal switch and the manufacturer states it is suitable for zone 1 then this is acceptable.
All LV circuits in a bathroom must be protected by a 30mA RCD and this includes the fan.
If the fan meets these requirements then it can be installed in zone 1.
Obviously all general rules apply as well so that it must be suitable for the external influences encountered and suitably protected against overcurrent, etc, etc.

 

[Jmagee]

thanks for the info

 

[hightower]

Well, the manufacturers instructions are statutory, so follow them.

Really?

 

[Carlosfandango]

I recently had this scenario on a eicr where the fan was sited 600mm up from the top of a bath. I was ready to code it a c2 but looked at the zones and ended up not coding it. Certainly wouldn't be me putting a fan there!!


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[Jay Sparks]

Really?

Manufacturers Instructions them selves aren't mandatory but it is advised in most, if not all statutory regulations that they are be followed, for several reasons. Not just for safety but to keep the warranty in tact.

Jay

 

[telectrix]

bs 7671 ADVISES THAT MI'S SHOULD BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT, NOT BLINDLY FOLLOWED.

 

[Jay Sparks]

bs 7671 ADVISES THAT MI'S SHOULD BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT, NOT BLINDLY FOLLOWED.

But BS7671 ISN'T STATUTORY!!

If you don't follow the MI, then you could be putting people/property at risk and it will void the warranty (unless agreed with the manufacturer).

 

[Andy78]

But BS7671 ISN'T STATUTORY!!

If you don't follow the MI, then you could be putting people/property at risk and it will void the warranty (unless agreed with the manufacturer).

What about blindly following MIs that could potentially cause danger or are non compliant with the regs ? I've lost count of the times I've come across (and ignored) those.

 

[hightower]

Jay I Think I'd like to see where it says this in the statutory regs you talk about

 

[Jay Sparks]

What about blindly following MIs that could potentially cause danger or are non compliant with the regs ? I've lost count of the times I've come across those.

I was speaking to a lad the other week that had to fit a CO2 detector 500mm from the boiler, as per the spec. But the MI's stated at least 1000mm away. He raised this concern with the site foreman. What happens if there was a fault with the boiler and the alarm doesn't go off? Who's gets the blame? Obviously you would try and satisfy all regulations and MI's but I would try and follow the Mi's if there was a conflict. They have tested their equipment and they know how and where it should be installed. saying that, some equipment and the MI's don't conform to British standards anyway!! So you would use other regs for info.

I don't blindly follow them, I still use my own judgement and interpretations for each install as they will all be different.

 

[Jay Sparks]

Ok, so I have had a look and apart form the odd mention in the PUWER and Electrical safety regs, it doesn't actually state they are mandatory, so I will hold my hands up there and say, every day is a school day. This is what I was taught years ago and have never really thought about it since.

But I still think as electricians we need to be making the judgement on whether the equipment is fit for the environment, given all the relevant info in the regs and MI's. If for example the MI's state that the fan should not be fitted in any zone but the BS7671 says it can be, I would always follow the MI's because f anything goes wrong, I think these would make a better case in court.

 

[ruston]

To be fair to jay, take the post on SY cable, Eland say it is not suitable for outside use . Would you follow , or ignore it?

 

[Risteard]

I was speaking to a lad the other week that had to fit a CO2 detector 500mm from the boiler, as per the spec. But the MI's stated at least 1000mm away.

I presume you mean carbon monoxide /CO) a opposed to carbon dioxide (CO2), but how do you know that it will operate correctly/effectively at 500mm? I believe 1 to 3 metres from the appliance in a horizontal plane is suggested.

 

[Risteard]

Sorry, just reread your post and realised it was the drawings demanding it in the wrong place.

 

[Jay Sparks]

I wouldn't use any cable outside if it wasn't suitable. Not having read the MI on SY cable, I don't know if the outer sheath offers any UV protection at all. Obviously the screen offers no mechanical protection. But again, use of this cable is "not advised" in the OSG, so really it should not be used at all if we blindly follow the regs as it doesn't conform to ALL the relevant standards! That said, it is part of the new 2357 apprenticeship portfolio and the AM2, so who knows any more?? I would still use it on installations I felt it was right for though!

 

[Andy78]

Ok, so I have had a look and apart form the odd mention in the PUWER and Electrical safety regs, it doesn't actually state they are mandatory, so I will hold my hands up there and say, every day is a school day. This is what I was taught years ago and have never really thought about it since.

But I still think as electricians we need to be making the judgement on whether the equipment is fit for the environment, given all the relevant info in the regs and MI's. If for example the MI's state that the fan should not be fitted in any zone but the BS7671 says it can be, I would always follow the MI's because f anything goes wrong, I think these would make a better case in court.

Well that's fair play to you then. Most of us rely on what we have been taught, and I have been caught out holding quite a few misconceptions from my training days.

BS7671 covers suitability of equipment quite thoroughly. It states that equipment should be selected using the info in the regs and as provided by the manufacturer. If a fan manufacturer stated it was not suitable for zone 1 then obviously you would not fit it as this info alone would mean non compliance with the regs.

If however a cheapy DIY shed light fitting's instructions told me to connect to a connector strip, wrap it in tape, and shove it in the ceiling, I reckon I'd be referring to BS7671 to guide me as to the safest way to put that fitting up.
If the 2.75kW hob fitted with a 1.5mm flex's instructions told me to supply it with a minimum of 6mm cable on a 32A supply, I'd take a good guess that they bung the same paperwork in with all their appliances and refer to cable calcs.

I'm not by any means saying I ignore all MIs, just take some with a pinch of salt. Most instructions from most decent manufacturers are well thought out and well worth taking heed of.

 

[Jay Sparks]

I presume you mean carbon monoxide /CO) a opposed to carbon dioxide (CO2), but how do you know that it will operate correctly/effectively at 500mm? I believe 1 to 3 metres from the appliance in a horizontal plane is suggested.

Yes sorry, my mistake. I just don't know what is real anymore!!lol