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Sorry for doing this as new members probably are a pain for doing this.

Recently I had a new bathroom installed in my house. I don't know any electricians in the area, but was given a number of a SELECT registered electrician. The plumber and joiner had already made a start on the bathroom before the electrician came along.

The job consisted of fitting 5 LED downlights, mounting a LED mirror above a sink cabinet which also has two LED strips that are activated by touching the side of the cabinet. The previous bathroom already had an electrical feed at the mirror and old style spot lights in the ceiling.

We didn't get a quote in advance from this electrician which was an error by ourselves. It's a father and son business.

The father and son visited my house one day and removed the old lights and left a temporary light hanging. They also took a feed to where the sink drawers would be. The walls were back at brickwork and easy access. The electrician is claiming 2x2=4 hour labour. The other tradesmen said they were barely there 1 hour.

The joiner then replaced the walls and covered them with splash panels. The roof was sagging a bit so the joiner also put a new frame around before fitting the PVC roof panels.

It was only the young guy who came back on his own weeks later. The other tradesmen had already informed me they thought he was an apprentice due to his skills. I also though he was, but his dad informs me we are all wrong.

The son openly admitted to us he struggled badly. He couldn't manage to mount the mirror on his own and didn't have a clue about how to wire the LED lights on the drawers. He was very open to us about this and told us it was a wasted day for him. He admitted he lost hours. That's ignoring his cigarette breaks and Facebook visits.

He had to come back weeks later to finish the job. It took him minutes to get the LED drawers working on return. The mirror was set far too high and with my assistance it took less than 10 minutes to move. It's only three screws.

When he was in the house and my other half asked him to swap 3 light switches (we supplied) and one of the lights had come loose in the ceiling right next to where he was working on the ladder. It took seconds to twist back in.

A few weeks later the bill arrived. It was for £850. No explanation for this amount. Just a labour cost and a materials cost. There was no email on the bill so I sent him a text. The reply was for 18 hours labour at £30, £100 for the 5 LED lights and £68 "other materials" all plus VAT.

The time spent in the house didn't amount to 18 hours and most of a day was lost as the son struggled so much. I asked if this work justified 18 hours labour? The dad refused to answer. I tried sending another message and got his email to ask for a response. Nothing for weeks.

He then offered a gesture of goodwill. A slight discount. I refused to see it as goodwill and asked for an explanation for the bill.

My complaint was the son took far too long to do simple jobs, didn't understand the instructions of the joiner where to drill the holes for the lights. He drilled lots of unrequired holes in the old plaster ceiling. That wasted time. The mirror and the drawers were a clear issue too. Also the hours charged for were incorrect.

He had also been smoking in the loft and never put the loft insulation back in place either.



I got a response today and it's a bit odd I'll say.

He has now reduced the amount of labour, but is now charging me 1.5 hours for travelling to make up for that. There is no mention of travel in the first two bills.

He won't admit his son struggled with the job, yet his son openly admitted this to the both of us.

He blames my partner for not sending him a photograph of the roof before the PVC panels were put up. The joiner left measurement and a picture from a phone isn't going to help much as you can't judge with that.

He says that the instructions for wiring the drawers were confusing and even the joiner and plumber couldn't understand them. I spoke to the plumber today and he said he didn't even look at the instructions. He's a plumber and not an electrician anyway. The plumber said the dad told him the drawers were easy to fit when he was there. It's only now they've become confusing.

The plumber also asked the cost to supply and fit the LED lights. The dad informed him £50 each.

In the dad's breakdown of each day's work there isn't much other than what I've said.

However it does include..

"Investigate and re-oreintate existing down light of stair half landing it had been poorly installed and was loose in ceiling". The young guy had the ladders out and the light was within reach. It's right next to the loft entrance where he was working. It was a case of push and twist it back in. It was literally seconds.

The father is now highlighting he had to move 2 hand luggage suitcases 6 feet across the loft. That would have also cost the grand total of about 30 seconds. It adds a lot of text to his job description, but it would have taken longer to type it than move the things.

Materials all excluding VAT.

1x Fuse only outlaw plate £3.31
1× Single surface box £1.30
1× Single F fin box 88p
1x deep single surface box £1.50
1× R.C.D spur unit £27.44
5× E8 downlights £100
5× E8 bezels £12.50
25mm 1m TTE cable £17.88
sundries, clips screws, connectors, sleeping etc £1.50

He refused to accept that there is a dispute and wants paid within 10 days or he will pursue the matter.


I've always been polite with the guy in an attempt to get a resolution. He just ignores me and today's letter is full of weak excuses and changed versions of events.

I'm not being unreasonable that £850 and 18 hours for the work is far, far too much?

What can I do in this situation? Thanks.
 
Not sure how it works in scotland but he could take you to small claims court for money but without a contract he might struggle to justify that. he would also have to explain work is up to standard etc...
likewise you might be best off sending a cheque for half the amount or whatever you feel is appropriate given what has been done and any other costs incurred to make good by using other tradesmen,say you make it in full and final payment as to then get more he would have to take civil action which i suspect he wouldn't do for a couple of hundred quid.
Its a lesson for you though, always get a written quote or basic contract outlining the works to be done, time frames, materials etc...

also if he is adding vat to the invoice have you checked his vat number is legit? HMRC take a very dim view of people pretending to be VAT registered when they are not, they also like to have a record of a specific invoice in the system with amounts as when they do a audit, which at some point they will, they will go back through looking for that paritcular invoice, with not very nice consequences if its missing! If his VAT details do not check out as okay then you could argue his invoice is unlawful as its fraudulent... i have seen people in england legally refuse to pay a invoice in such circumstances.
 
If i was wiring 5 spots then £35 per spotlight(inc the fitting and led lamp) and wiring up the table another £50 and changing 3 switches £30 so total of £255.I wouldn't charge for twisting light back in.
The only thing i cannot understand is he's charging you for a rcd spur and what's the 25mm 1m TTE cable £17.88?
 
Why would you let someone work on your property without providing a a quotation? Especially if the end value is going to matter to you?
I agree both to blame, sparky sounds a bit dodge but at least the work got done.
Why did you let it go on so far? Shouldn’t you have said something at the time?
 
Sorry for doing this as new members probably are a pain for doing this.

Recently I had a new bathroom installed in my house. I don't know any electricians in the area, but was given a number of a SELECT registered electrician. The plumber and joiner had already made a start on the bathroom before the electrician came along.

The job consisted of fitting 5 LED downlights, mounting a LED mirror above a sink cabinet which also has two LED strips that are activated by touching the side of the cabinet. The previous bathroom already had an electrical feed at the mirror and old style spot lights in the ceiling.

We didn't get a quote in advance from this electrician which was an error by ourselves. It's a father and son business.

The father and son visited my house one day and removed the old lights and left a temporary light hanging. They also took a feed to where the sink drawers would be. The walls were back at brickwork and easy access. The electrician is claiming 2x2=4 hour labour. The other tradesmen said they were barely there 1 hour.

The joiner then replaced the walls and covered them with splash panels. The roof was sagging a bit so the joiner also put a new frame around before fitting the PVC roof panels.

It was only the young guy who came back on his own weeks later. The other tradesmen had already informed me they thought he was an apprentice due to his skills. I also though he was, but his dad informs me we are all wrong.

The son openly admitted to us he struggled badly. He couldn't manage to mount the mirror on his own and didn't have a clue about how to wire the LED lights on the drawers. He was very open to us about this and told us it was a wasted day for him. He admitted he lost hours. That's ignoring his cigarette breaks and Facebook visits.

He had to come back weeks later to finish the job. It took him minutes to get the LED drawers working on return. The mirror was set far too high and with my assistance it took less than 10 minutes to move. It's only three screws.

When he was in the house and my other half asked him to swap 3 light switches (we supplied) and one of the lights had come loose in the ceiling right next to where he was working on the ladder. It took seconds to twist back in.

A few weeks later the bill arrived. It was for £850. No explanation for this amount. Just a labour cost and a materials cost. There was no email on the bill so I sent him a text. The reply was for 18 hours labour at £30, £100 for the 5 LED lights and £68 "other materials" all plus VAT.

The time spent in the house didn't amount to 18 hours and most of a day was lost as the son struggled so much. I asked if this work justified 18 hours labour? The dad refused to answer. I tried sending another message and got his email to ask for a response. Nothing for weeks.

He then offered a gesture of goodwill. A slight discount. I refused to see it as goodwill and asked for an explanation for the bill.

My complaint was the son took far too long to do simple jobs, didn't understand the instructions of the joiner where to drill the holes for the lights. He drilled lots of unrequired holes in the old plaster ceiling. That wasted time. The mirror and the drawers were a clear issue too. Also the hours charged for were incorrect.

He had also been smoking in the loft and never put the loft insulation back in place either.



I got a response today and it's a bit odd I'll say.

He has now reduced the amount of labour, but is now charging me 1.5 hours for travelling to make up for that. There is no mention of travel in the first two bills.

He won't admit his son struggled with the job, yet his son openly admitted this to the both of us.

He blames my partner for not sending him a photograph of the roof before the PVC panels were put up. The joiner left measurement and a picture from a phone isn't going to help much as you can't judge with that.

He says that the instructions for wiring the drawers were confusing and even the joiner and plumber couldn't understand them. I spoke to the plumber today and he said he didn't even look at the instructions. He's a plumber and not an electrician anyway. The plumber said the dad told him the drawers were easy to fit when he was there. It's only now they've become confusing.

The plumber also asked the cost to supply and fit the LED lights. The dad informed him £50 each.

In the dad's breakdown of each day's work there isn't much other than what I've said.

However it does include..

"Investigate and re-oreintate existing down light of stair half landing it had been poorly installed and was loose in ceiling". The young guy had the ladders out and the light was within reach. It's right next to the loft entrance where he was working. It was a case of push and twist it back in. It was literally seconds.

The father is now highlighting he had to move 2 hand luggage suitcases 6 feet across the loft. That would have also cost the grand total of about 30 seconds. It adds a lot of text to his job description, but it would have taken longer to type it than move the things.

Materials all excluding VAT.

1x Fuse only outlaw plate £3.31
1× Single surface box £1.30
1× Single F fin box 88p
1x deep single surface box £1.50
1× R.C.D spur unit £27.44
5× E8 downlights £100
5× E8 bezels £12.50
25mm 1m TTE cable £17.88
sundries, clips screws, connectors, sleeping etc £1.50

He refused to accept that there is a dispute and wants paid within 10 days or he will pursue the matter.


I've always been polite with the guy in an attempt to get a resolution. He just ignores me and today's letter is full of weak excuses and changed versions of events.

I'm not being unreasonable that £850 and 18 hours for the work is far, far too much?

What can I do in this situation? Thanks.

If that one line is correct,there is no need to read the rest,to work out the craic :)
 
It's really hard to find tradesmen in Aberdeen. So many refused to get involved they were so busy. She got a bit desperate.

The father had done work for my partner's sister before. We got the son.

It was actually my partner that asked him to do the job without a quote. I didn't anticipate this happening.
 
If i was wiring 5 spots then £35 per spotlight(inc the fitting and led lamp) and wiring up the table another £50 and changing 3 switches £30 so total of £255.I wouldn't charge for twisting light back in.
The only thing i cannot understand is he's charging you for a rcd spur and what's the 25mm 1m TTE cable £17.88?
RCD Spur I assume to give RCD Protection for Bathroom Lighting Circuit
 
His business address is 16 miles away according to Google Maps.


Someone sent me a PM. I take it I need a certain amount of posts to respond. I'm not being ŕude and ignoring it.

She's in tears over it tonight and desperate to pay up. No wonder the guy can get away with it.
May I suggest you ask for a meeting with the electrical contractor. Raise your issues with him directly (smoking on your premises and the labour costs breakdown etc).

He's broken down the materials list and cost so I assume that's not an issue? I don't see why he'd have an issue breaking down where the 18 hours came from.

I'd most likely have given a quote before starting so you got no shocks with the invoice at the end, but it doesn't always work out that way.
 
The charge sounds astronomic to me and unjustified
It does seem like one big con.here are his obligations and from my understanding he does not have much chance of his con being successful if you challenge him

Watchdog - Supply of services - BBC One - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1fdlwC9xzyxjCpWMlsCGG3j/supply-of-services

When it comes to work itself, the act states that a tradesman or professional has a 'duty of care' towards you and your property. Any standard or price you agree must be honoured. But if it isn't agreed in advance the work must be done to a reasonable standard, at a reasonable cost, and within a reasonable time.
 
Here is his breakdown. The other pages have addresses and personal details. I'll need to edit that stuff out.

His son was the only one in the loft between our previous visits. We don't smoke and the smell was obvious to us.

I did take it up with him that a few other electricians I spoke to said about £350 would be cost of the job.

Where else would you put a sensor on a drawer you have to touch to turn on? I didn't read the instructions, but I can't begin to understand the confusion.

Advice for a bill/dispute 20171018_001319 - EletriciansForums.net

Advice for a bill/dispute 20171018_000933 - EletriciansForums.net
 
Bloody hell a bathroom job went from July till September?

We do them in a week usually.

It was only finished today. I'm moving house before I ever consider more work on the house.

We had to do the painting ourselves as the painters we phoned had 8-12 weeks work.

The plumber, joiner and electrician done jobs in stops and starts. Between trade shows, holidays, other jobs it just dragged on.

We then had to wait weeks for the flooring company to get us a fitting slot. The plumber came back today and fitted and sealed the bath panel.
 
Sorry I'm still here.

Reading his bill he points out all the work carried out on the 17/8 and how it would be made live on next visit.

6/9 pull down cables to connect and make live?

With the the exception of the drawer everything was live.
 
Can't see any costing for required testing, certification and notifying Building control, or is it different where you live?, Has he issued any certification? If he is disputing your claim that the lad was/is an Apprentice, and the Father is saying he is an Electrician, ask him if you coild see copies of the Lads qualifications, is the Father / Son Electrician a member of any of the Competent Persons Schemes?
 

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