UK AFDD - Has this left a loophole for landlords?

[Jimbo_McSparkface]

Recently been working on a system design for a LL. I was told the building would be a three floor 16 room HMO, so the design was done to the current Regs for that use. When the LL saw the cost of AFDD's he 'blew a fuse' and said no way was he fitting them at a cost of over 3K. I explaned that this was now a legal requirement and that they had to be fitted in HMO's from the new regs come into force. Needless to say he wasn't best pleased.

He come back to me a few days later and said it was not going to be an HMO now but a Hostel instead so he wouldn't be required to fit AFDD's - which is correct from what I can see in the regs.

The thing is that I'm the only one being told that - everything else is still being done (as cheeply as possible from what I can see with the not so occisional stretching of rules and requirements) to facilitate an HMO. Speaking to other trades on-site has borne this out with some telling me they had been told to say it's a hostle if anyone asks, but the building conversion is going ahead as per original instructions for an HMO.

So, have the IET left a risky unintentional loophole here? - Tell the sparks it's a hostel and save yourself some money! It's difficult to call this one out as in some cases there isn't much of a difference between the apperance of a hostel and a HMO but the electrical requirements are very different.

Are we potentially going to end up with a case where a spark doing a EICR or an install certifies to the spec for a Hostel, the LL then runs it as an HMO and if something goes wrong the spark is the fall guy as the LL will say the spark did not tell him the requirements were differrent?? If the LL says it's something it's not how can a certifying make that call and certify to the specs he believes the building is actually being used for?
I can see this becoming an issue with unscrupulous LL's once they twig the loophole - and they are the very ones whos properties are likely to have the problems and the ones that were - I suspect, a big part of the reason why HMO's are now required to fit AFDD's.

Interested to hear peoples views especially anyone on here with IET connections.

 

[nicebutdim]

In this case it's BS7671:2018 421.1.7 would take precedence over local authority requirements as it is a statutory requirement.

421.1.7
Arc fault detection devices conforming to EN62606 shall be provided for
single phase AC final circuits supplying socket outlets with rated current
not exceeding 32A in:
• Higher risk residential buildings
• Houses of multiple occupancy (HMO)
• Purpose built student accommodation
• Care homes
NOTE 1: Higher Risk Residential Buildings are assumed to be residential
buildings over 18m in height or in excess of six storeys, whichever is met
fi rst. It is anticipated that in many areas, higher risk residential buildings
will be defined in legislation which can be subject to change over time,
as well as in risk management procedures adopted by fi re and rescue
services. Current legislation should be applied.
For all other premises, the use of AFDDs conforming to BS EN62606 is
recommended for single phase AC fi nal circuits supplying socket outlets
not exceeding 32A.
Where used, AFDDs shall be placed at the origin of the circuit to be protected

Wiring regs aren't statutory, but I'd certainly aim to work within their confines and consider a hostel to fall within the category of 'high risk residential building'.

 

[Jimbo_McSparkface]

Wiring regs aren't statutory, but I'd certainly aim to work within their confines and consider a hostel to fall within the category of 'high risk residential building'.

I Humbly stand corrected your honour, lol

 

[nicebutdim]

I Humbly stand corrected your honour, lol

The prospect of having to address 'Your honour' is the a very good reason for working within the confines of BS7671.

 

[Lister1987]

In this case it's BS7671:2018 421.1.7 would take precedence over local authority requirements as it is a statutory requirement. I stand corrected on that point, still I'd rather work to a recognised standard than what someone in the local authority tells me.

421.1.7
Arc fault detection devices conforming to EN62606 shall be provided for
single phase AC final circuits supplying socket outlets with rated current
not exceeding 32A in:
• Higher risk residential buildings
• Houses of multiple occupancy (HMO)
• Purpose built student accommodation
• Care homes
NOTE 1: Higher Risk Residential Buildings are assumed to be residential
buildings over 18m in height or in excess of six storeys, whichever is met
fi rst. It is anticipated that in many areas, higher risk residential buildings
will be defined in legislation which can be subject to change over time,
as well as in risk management procedures adopted by fi re and rescue
services. Current legislation should be applied.
For all other premises, the use of AFDDs conforming to BS EN62606 is
recommended for single phase AC fi nal circuits supplying socket outlets
not exceeding 32A.
Where used, AFDDs shall be placed at the origin of the circuit to be protected

I get your point Jimbo, reason I say that licensing authority is that they'll be backing up their requirements with legislation (housing & local government legislation) as opposed to non-stat BS7671. They'll ultimately be the ones to grant or revoke any license but you would be helping your case with something from them in writing, even if that just means he gets some other schmuck to install what he wants and how it wants it; thier head on that block then, not yours. Reg 29 "...all due diligence to avoid commission of an offence..". It could even be that the licensing authority say it's nowt to do with them and doesn't need licensing; at least then you've explored the avenue and satisfied yourself with how YOU would stand if faeces were flung by fan. Paranoid, overkill? Whatever it needs to be to protect my backside

 

[Lister1987]

The prospect of having to address 'Your honour' is the a very good reason for working within the confines of BS7671.

I prefer "from the foundation of BS7671"; It's the floor, not the ceiling, the foundation, not the summit.....and so forth.

 

[Markyd]

Surely if he registers the property afterwards as a HMO then he would need an EICR done on the property and it would be noted there are no AFDD's

 

[Jimbo_McSparkface]

I get your point Jimbo, reason I say that licensing authority is that they'll be backing up their requirements with legislation (housing & local government legislation) as opposed to non-stat BS7671. They'll ultimately be the ones to grant or revoke any license but you would be helping your case with something from them in writing, even if that just means he gets some other schmuck to install what he wants and how it wants it; thier head on that block then, not yours. Reg 29 "...all due diligence to avoid commission of an offence..". It could even be that the licensing authority say it's nowt to do with them and doesn't need licensing; at least then you've explored the avenue and satisfied yourself with how YOU would stand if faeces were flung by fan. Paranoid, overkill? Whatever it needs to be to protect my backside

Fair point.
and as for rear end protection - it seems that it is becoming an increasingly major part of the job these days, especially when working with some LL's.

... First law of landlording - carry on being as dodgey as you can get away with unless a force takes action on you.

... Second law of landlording - When a force acts on you accelerate out of the picture and make sure someone else ends up carrying the can.

... Third law of landlording - to every rule there is a equal and opposite dodgy work around!

 

[loz2754]

Fair point.
and as for rear end protection - it seems that it is becoming an increasingly major part of the job these days, especially when working with some LL's.

... First law of landlording - carry on being as dodgey as you can get away with unless a force takes action on you.

... Second law of landlording - When a force acts on you accelerate out of the picture and make sure someone else ends up carrying the can.

... Third law of landlording - to every rule there is a equal and opposite dodgy work around!

I totally agree. At the first signs of the landlord being "dodgy", I would immediately stop doing any more work for that landlord.

 

[Jimbo_McSparkface]

Surely if he registers the property afterwards as a HMO then he would need an EICR done on the property and it would be noted there are no AFDD's

True - but only if he tells the spark it's an HMO.

If the LL decides to save the expense of putting in AFDD's by telling the spark doing the EICR it's a hostel, then it's 'satisfactory' without AFDD's whereas it wouldn't be as an HMO. In alot of cases there's not much physical difference between an HMO and a Hostel so the spark gets dupped into issuing a cert for an install which isn't really up to 7671:2018 spec and no Local authority inspector that I know of would either know to the difference or go past the first page of the cert. So this gets me wondering if the smelly stuff hits the fan and something bad happens, is it likely to become a war of he said / she said played out in a courtroom somewhere?

All a bit hypothetical, but to me it seems that hostel should really be in there with HMO with the AFDD requirements.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

If the LL decides to save the expense of putting in AFDD's by telling the spark doing the EICR it's a hostel, then it's 'satisfactory' without AFDD's whereas it wouldn't be as an HMO.

BPG4 offers a C3 for lack of AFDD in HMOs, so going by that, it would still be a satisfactory.

 

[Gurnatronics]

I think the difference between a hostel and a HMO is a hostel is ‘guests’, whereby appliances are provided and PAT tested, whereas a HMO is residents where any old junk maybe plugged in…

In that instance I can see the difference for the requirements. In this instance I’d run a mile, if they are pulling tricks this early

 

[littlespark]

We’re having a similar discussion on another thread concerning dodgy landlords, and I’ll repeat what I’ve said there.

Not all landlords are dodgy.

We only hear about bad ones because it makes headlines/ good telly.

There must be thousands of decent HMO landlords doing things right, and producing low rent housing for disadvantaged tenants.

Yes, there’s a loophole, there always is until it’s discovered and fixed.

Likewise, normal rental properties need an EICR. Have done for years. Only now is short term holiday lets requiring same.

 

[Jimbo_McSparkface]

We’re having a similar discussion on another thread concerning dodgy landlords, and I’ll repeat what I’ve said there.

Not all landlords are dodgy.

We only hear about bad ones because it makes headlines/ good telly.

There must be thousands of decent HMO landlords doing things right, and producing low rent housing for disadvantaged tenants.

Yes, there’s a loophole, there always is until it’s discovered and fixed.

Likewise, normal rental properties need an EICR. Have done for years. Only now is short term holiday lets requiring same.

100% Correct and I'm one of them - Landlord that is. I have a very simple rule that I go by - If I wouldn't be prepared to move in and live there myself, then it's not good enough to rent out - simples

EICR's in Norn Iron are a bit different in the private rental market - but it is set to change.

 

[chorisia]

Surely, it is the owner's responsibility to ensure that the building complies with legislation, not the electrician's.
As long a you have a written statement in your contract as to the purpose and use of the building, you should be covered legally.
Having said that, if any client of mine tried this kind of tactic, be would no longer be my client.

Council attitude where I live if the electrician gives it an EICR he is responsible,many are giving up on HMO's one costly regulation 'upgrade' after another every five years.I used to have unsolicited offers a couple of times a month from those wishing to buy my HMO; nothing in the last few months. Many years ago I was told my council would like to see all HMO closed and every resident in minimaly studio flats, not everyone can afford that particularly now.

 

[captaincaveman]

Not had any dealings with AFDDs yet thank god but just wondering if it's feasible to have one 40A type C AFDD with two 20A type A RCBOs off it? I agree it's bizarre but would it be allowed?