NAPIT Certification Scheme An interesting exchange today with Contactum, IET & NAPIT

[D Skelton]

As title says:

 

[Slowhand]

It might be a good idea to involve Bomb Disposal in this because it looks very much like we're all stood at the edge of a great big minefield.

 

[D Skelton]

And it continues:

 

[Darkwood]

There is still great confusion all around here and IET has yet 'to my knowledge' to give a definitive response to the questions posed to them about the confusion of this regulation 421.1.201

Here lies the problem - The consumer unit or similar switchgear has to comply to BS EN 61439-3 with basically is a set of test like an hot touch, self extinguishing etc...

As worded by the regs - 421.1.201

Within domestic (household) premises, consumer units and similar switchgear assemblies shall comply with BS EN 61439-3 AND SHALL;

(i) have their enclosure manufactured from non combustible material, OR
(ii) be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed of non-combustible material and complying with reg 132.12.

NOTE 1: Ferrous metal , e.g. steel, is deemed to be an example of a non-conbustible material
NOTE 2: (Just mentions implementation date jan 2016)

Now the problem here is the regulations states it has to comply to both the BS61439-3 and be non combustible if you do not house it as to point (ii) but there's no documented definitive definition of a non-combustaible material but they do give an example so this is not saying it has to be steel.

My next point is everything is combustible given high enough temperatures and the conditions to burn so we need to know the exact requirements to be given a non combustible rating are.... all the manfacturers have to comply to is the BS 61439-3 and that allows them to meet the first part if the regulation but who is going to define the parameters of the word non combustible, yes steel is an example but as this is the only example they give we are stuck with the example as we have no other information to go on.

 

[D Skelton]

Try BS EN 60695-2-10,11&12 and BS EN 13943 for that definition DW.

It's quite clear I think

 

[telectrix]

There is still great confusion all around here and IET has yet 'to my knowledge' to give a definitive response to the questions posed to them about the confusion of this regulation 421.1.201

Here lies the problem - The consumer unit or similar switchgear has to comply to BS EN 61439-3 with basically is a set of test like an hot touch, self extinguishing etc...

As worded by the regs -

Within domestic (household) premises, consumer units and similar switchgear assemblies shall comply with BS EN 61439-3 AND SHALL;

(i) have their enclosure manufactured fromnon combustible material, OR
(ii) be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed of non-combustible material and complying with reg 132.12.

NOTE 1: Ferrous metal , e.g. steel, is deemed to be an example of a non-conbustible material
NOTE 2: (Just mentions implementation date jan 2016)

Now the problem here is the regulations states it has to comply to both the BS61439-3 and be non combustible if you do not house it as to point (ii) but there's no documented definitive definition of a non-combustaible material but they do give an example so this is not saying it has to be steel.

My next point is everything is conbustible given high enough temperatures and the conditions to burn so we need to know the exact requirements to be given a non combustible rating are.... all the manfacturers have to comply to is the BS 61439-3 and that allows them to meet the first part if the regulation but who is going to define the parameters of the word non combustible, yes steel is an example but as this is the only example they give we are stuck with the example as we have no other information to go on.

my thoughts exactly. a titanium enclosure would be non-combustible, and so would a ceramic one. it's time the IET pulled their collective fingers out of their ears and came up with suitable materials, instead of just saying that steel is an example.

 

[Darkwood]

Try BS EN 60695-2-10,11&12 and BS EN 13943 for that definition DW.

It's quite clear I think

I myself and the majority of the normal average sparky do not have access to all these regulations to cross reference the clarity of said regulation, my point is the regulation is at best ambigious and confusing and as this applies to domestic only it should be really made clearer within the BS 7671 and in its present format you are left with anything steel or similar to be sure you have met the regulation.

If the IET deem anything complying to BS61439-3 is what part of the requirement is, then why add that its needs also to be non-combustible surely meeting these requirements minimises the dangers of a fire using the enclosure to get a hold and spread .... if the BS61439-3 isn't good enough on its own then why not raise the bar as to the requirements at manufacturing level and leave the BS7671 with a simple regulation that is easy to follow..... I just think this whole situation has been poorly introduced leaving many questions that just are not been answered.

What is the point if you can have a plastic board that complies to BS61439-3 then saying oh yeah and its to be non-combustible.. who says when a plastic board is or isn't non combustible --- I thought that was the whole point of the BS61439-3 standard hence this regulation is just a ball of confusion.

 

[D Skelton]

You're right, it's a joke

 

[telectrix]

You're right, it's a joke

you should be able to handle it. after all, you had the italians in north africa and they were a joke. lol.

 

[Octopus]

You're right, it's a joke

I think a farce is more accurate.

Its about time the IET got its act together and placed "proof reading" of their regs in the hands of the "plain english society" before the next versions go to print.

We are not all in agreement, the wholesalers don't know either, so god help Joe Public

 

[telectrix]

just about to start up in production of CUs made entirely from glass.

1. glass is non-combustible.

2. end user will be able to see the poor terminations made by the Electrical Trainee's and avert a fire by calling in a competent electrician to fix it before a fire breaks out.

SORTED.

 

[Darkwood]

just about to start up in production of CUs made entirely from glass.

1. glass is non-combustible.

2. end user will be able to see the poor terminations made by the Electrical Trainee's and avert a fire by calling in a competent electrician to fix it before a fire breaks out.

SORTED.

Until you drop it!

 

[netblindpaul]

As title says:

View attachment 29052

Can't read that D!
Too small even on the laptop screen, don't have a desktop machine to make it bigger on at the moment!

 

[telectrix]

can't read that d!
Too small even on the laptop screen, don't have a desktop machine to make it bigger on at the moment!

open the pic, then click on it and zoom in.

 

[Marvo]

Try right click on it and open in a new tab then you should be able to click on it again to enlarge.

 

[netblindpaul]

It won't work for me, I'll try to re-start the browser in a bit, doing something in another tab @ the moment so can't close it.

 

[ipf]

Had a conversation at wholesalers today. They are stopping providing the old CU's. New wylex m/clad 10w HI £80 without breakers.
Wylex 40mm gland for tails £10, others available for £5. Some sort of sealed unit for rear incorporating glands £30....so we're talking something like £160 for a complete unit. Double the cost.
Looks like there's not going to be much choice. Short and curlies, eh? Ridiculous!!

 

[Darkwood]

Had a conversation at wholesalers today. They are stopping providing the old CU's. New wylex m/clad 10w HI £80 without breakers.
Wylex 40mm gland for tails £10, others available for £5. Some sort of sealed unit for rear incorporating glands £30....so we're talking something like £160 for a complete unit. Double the cost.
Looks like there's not going to be much choice. Short and curlies, eh? Ridiculous!!

Just fitted a metal wylex split board for less than £120 in parts - 8 x mcb and a 40mm stuffing gland, you're getting ripped if its £160 the wholesaler was even taking about a fully loaded soon for less than £100 so not sure where your getting yours from.

 

[netblindpaul]

Why are the wholesalers stopping supplying the plastic CU's when they are OK anywhere except domestic?

Oh and re-starting the browser sorted the pic issue!

 

[shanky887614]

Until you drop it!

are you sure www.youtube.com/watch?v=12OSBJwogFc