Bathroom/Shower Zones

[electricloopy]

I have 4 downlights in the bathroom above the shower all are MR11 - 12v 20w.

One is directly central above the shower cubicle and 3 are approx 150mm beyond the perimeter of the cubicle, which I assume these being in Zone 2. The ceiling is approx. 350mm above the top of the cubicle.

I want to change these over to LED

Do I have to keep the voltage at 12v or could I use 240v led Fire-rated lights in this zone as replacements.

thanks

 

[Hellmooth]

230v ip rated downlights will be fine. Fire rated also.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Fire rated also

Err......why?

 

[Hellmooth]

Because I like to use fire rated lol, haven't used non in a long time, even though I use led I still don't trust people chucking in halogen and the potential for burning. Just preference

 

[Taylortwocities]

But thats not what fire-rated fittings are for.

Firstly they are only necessary if the ceiling being penetrated is a fire barrier itself, most ceilings in houses are not fire barriers.
Secondly, the fire rated fitting is there to provide a period (30/60ish minutes) block to prevent the passage of fire through the hole, it's not there to prevent the downlight itself catching fire.

In a bathroom, I would be more concerned that the fittings conformed to Building regulations Part C to prevent moisture being drawn up into the roof space. Just preference lol

 

[Hellmooth]

Yes I understand what the fire rating is for, I prefer to use them for majority of my installs regardless of fire need or not, unless space is extremely tight.

 

[electricloopy]

In a bathroom, I would be more concerned that the fittings conformed to Building regulations Part C to prevent moisture being drawn up into the roof space. Just preference lol

Thats why I asked the question. Having fitted the existing lamps some 8 years ago, I can remember it being said that due to the positioning of the lamps as I quoted. I should use 12v lights and to a standard I can't remember, but to change a lamp/bulb I have to remove the light from ceiling to renew the lamp/bulb. So the light is sealing itself against the ceiling to prevent moisture into the roof space.

Also as I see the Zone where the lights are fitted above the shower and cubicle that its most likely Zone 2.
So as its as said I could use 230v lights in this area.

Quote: "Downlights.co.uk"
Part C Resistance to Contaminants and Moisture

The majority of fire rated downlights are also Part C compliant, they are fitted with a moisture seal that prevents condensation from getting through the downlight hole. Many adjustable downlights are not Part C compliant and will allow drafts and condensation to get through.

What protection rating I should use. IP ??

 

[Octopus]

I would NOT be fitting non IP rated lights in a bathroom........

 

[andyb]

Good quality led down lights like Aurora and similar are fire rated and IP65.

 

[madmaz]

But thats not what fire-rated fittings are for.

Firstly they are only necessary if the ceiling being penetrated is a fire barrier itself, most ceilings in houses are not fire barriers.
Secondly, the fire rated fitting is there to provide a period (30/60ish minutes) block to prevent the passage of fire through the hole, it's not there to prevent the downlight itself catching fire.

I agree with you, and would fit non fire rated without hesitation, however I was pulled up by another spark about why I didn't use fire rated fittings and I explained generally the only fire ceilings found in a domestic property are in the garage, block of flats or masionette, he didn't agree so I queried it with elecsa and they have advised me that I should always fit fire rated fittings regardless of the ceiling, I suppose any plasterboard ceiling offers some level of fire protection be it intentional or not so if we are peppering it with holes maybe we should fit fire rated fittings to maintain integrity ?

 

[HandySparks]

Also as I see the Zone where the lights are fitted above the shower and cubicle that its most likely Zone 2.

Why don't you measure the ceiling height and determine whether or not they are zone 2?

 

[westward10]

I agree with you, and would fit non fire rated without hesitation, however I was pulled up by another spark about why I didn't use fire rated fittings and I explained generally the only fire ceilings found in a domestic property are in the garage, block of flats or masionette, he didn't agree so I queried it with elecsa and they have advised me that I should always fit fire rated fittings regardless of the ceiling, I suppose any plasterboard ceiling offers some level of fire protection be it intentional or not so if we are peppering it with holes maybe we should fit fire rated fittings to maintain integrity ?

Rooms in dwellings are generally not fire compartments, unless like you say a garage which has room above it or a block of flats where you must provide protection to the adjacent dwelling/s. A plasterboard ceiling otherwise is considered to provide 30 minutes protection to allow for evacuation of occupies and hence it is not necessary to fit fire rated fittings.

 

[madmaz]

Rooms in dwellings are generally not fire compartments, unless like you say a garage which has room above it or a block of flats where you must provide protection to the adjacent dwelling/s. A plasterboard ceiling otherwise is considered to provide 30 minutes protection to allow for evacuation of occupies and hence it is not necessary to fit fire rated fittings.

Yeah that's how I always thought of it but since I was pulled up about it and pushed into a corner suggesting I should have fitted them and being advised by elecsa to always fit that's what I do, as I said previously my only explaination as to why elecsa say always fit them must be that if you have a non fire rated downlight fitted in the standard 30min ceiling you no longer have the 30mins, timber structure could weaken in that time ??? I dunno.... could just be it's easier to fit them than to justify why you haven't just gonna do what I do now and that is use firerated i'd rather be over cautious I suppose

 

[Andy78]

The wiring regs ask for the fabric of a building to have any fire rating reinstated should a wiring system compromise that fire rating. This is regardless of it being a fire compartment or not.

The building regs ask for a minimum of 30 minute fire rating for ceilings that have load bearing joists above. This is regardless of it being a fire compartment or not.

I always fit fire rated downlights in any location, and I always fit IP65 downlights in any part of a bathroom. It would actually be harder for me to source non fire rated downlights I reckon. I have not seen any for years from the brands I use.

 

[Hellmooth]

I'm the same Andy my wholesaler doesn't stock them and gave me a funny look when I asked! I don't see the need in not fitting them.

 

[electricloopy]

Why don't you measure the ceiling height and determine whether or not they are zone 2?

i would have thought the height in my case is not the worry. As already mentioned the air gap between the top of the cubicle and the ceiling is approx. 350mm, as if this may trap more moisture within etc than a cubicle of a great distance to the ceiling being able to vent better.

So I take it the min. requirement would be IP65 whether its fire rated or not for best

 

[Andy78]

i would have thought the height in my case is not the worry. As already mentioned the air gap between the top of the cubicle and the ceiling is approx. 350mm, as if this may trap more moisture within etc than a cubicle of a great distance to the ceiling being able to vent better.

So I take it the min. requirement would be IP65 whether its fire rated or not for best

The minimum required is IP44 for within zones 1 and 2, you will find the majority of quality fittings actually offer IP65 though. You must also take into account the environmental effects likely to be encountered, such as rising moisture, and so IP65 rated fittings are advisable in all locations in a bathroom.