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The vote did one thing well. It divided tge country. We now have half the country seen as racist and inward looking and the other half trying to understand how it could have happened.
That split is also a generation split with the latter being the younger generation.
Now divided I can't see anyway to reunite.
The country is damaged and will be for a generation or more.
Depending on how things develop we may see more of the young leave the UK, my 2 sons are looking at Canada as tgeir next home. They don't want to live in a country that has the views it does.
My work has involved a lot of what europe has gained for the UK and I think its been a big plus. My only regret is we never fully participated and prefered to sit on the fence trying to hedge our bets which then ensured we didn't get our full say.
As for WW3 well a Trump win now looks posssible based on the US voters looking as racist as the UK voters and I can't see Trump bringing calm to the world.
The world isn't a safer place going diwn the isolatist route. Safety has more chance when we join and work together.

I now wonder how the Brexit voters are going to feel and vote when their non white bulldog british community members aren't sent home. Even if we could close the immigration door it doesn't change the current position. And every voice so far has said immigration probably won't change much.

I very much doubt your sons wish to leave the UK directly because of the result of the referendum, Judging by your responses and negative language towards anyone who voted for leave, I would suggest you have had some part to play in how the see the UK, whether you realise it or not, your children do often pick up on parental views, the area you live in and the local media will also shape their views on the matter, maybe they have freinds who do get racial abuse thus are sensitive to the larger media comments coming out about the Brexit issue, from your working point of view and experience will probably edge naturally towards a pro-biased view and that's your angle and I respect that but you repeatedly react in your posts with negative comment and slurs aimed at brexiteers and this in itself show it's your attitude that creates the divide and probably more so than the far right take on Immigration you seem to paint all the brexiteers with, there are a very small number of far right activists/voters out there but they do do alot of damage, it's natural for them to vote for brexit because the language that is aimed at normal voters also appeals to them in a very different way to what its intent was meant for, 'take our country back' - 'control immigration' all mean something totally different to a far right person than any other member of the public for example the 'take our country back was a reference to the extent our powers and laws now all come from Brussels, to a far right person it is clearly in their minds it means take our country back for the white British citizen..... guess which view the remainers and far left media latched onto?.. Considering the far right only account for a fraction of 1% of the voters for brexit, I find it both annoying and frustrating that all 17million are tarred with the same brush.
You also have to realise the younger generation have been schooled now with Pro- EU propaganda and this is another plot from the EU to ensure countries become dependent, even though I have expressed all of this and can back up anything I say, I find your responses are just reactionary and you don't seem to bring anything to the table to back your views up. So why is staying in the EU better, what is your reply to the many claims I have made about the EU, its easy to be a vocal warrior on the matter and make comments like 'I wander how the brexiters are going to feel and vote when their non white.....etc' which is IMHO just as bad as the attitude Far Right Activists have to immigrants ... with all respect to your input and views which are yours to express, your coming across as a big part of the problem here regarding the country divide as oppose to someone with genuine views and a good argument base to back it up.

I don't go around complaining about the PRO EU voter been anti British, nor do I tar them all with a one brush attitude, no because I understand they voted for many different reasons to want to remain in the EU, some for personel reasons others for much broader views and here's the thing, that's every persons right to use there view to demonstrate in a vote, its almost shameful to see the language and distaste created by the far left and biased media on anyone wishing to leave, I bet the many relevent points I made for my views had never even entered your mind during the debates as I didn't see these core reasons myself in any of them so I do argue that staying within the EU was like staying on a train when you can see the track is out ahead, yes you jump off and maybe into the unknown but at least you don't end up in the mangle when its derailed at high speed.
 
My gripe, and yes it is a gripe, is that many many families will tip over the edge during the next 3,5,7 or more years as the economy dips and struggles during the brexit process. At best that will be a few years and hopefully only minor but we suffered years of Austerity to get were we where and that's all been thrown out the window.
How do we live with the children of families that will be ----ed aside unable to manage and cope? Those children will be the next decades adults.

Via the vote many made a longer term gamble on the backs of short term costs and those costs are peoples lives.
I don't consider myself anti British but I also don't consider the Britain of the past as anything to go back to. Slavery, colonisation the stripping of other lands for their resources. All great at the time but not something I feel we should hark back to.
So I saw Great Britian as moving forwards and forwards isn't backwards which it is now.

I don't see immigrants as "others" as lesser. I see them as people and part of a community. As long as we all contribute we all gain.

Apart from forums I don't get to meet any Brexit voters who have a considered view. Many just won't even mention it now and those that do troop out the lines you hear reported on TV. "We need to get rid of foreigners and be great again like we were promised".
At that point there's not really much you can say to them. They have been fed misinformation for years and made promises that just can't be met but you can't undo that in one conversation. Or even two or three.
 
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My argument is that the EU itself has already created this reality, destroyed Industries and imposed laws and legislation that has tipped many families over the edge, you seem too blinkered in your views that this is a one way street and ignore the fact that the outcome of the Brexit is an unkown yet we have 40yrs of actual evidence of the pro's and con's of been part of the EU. You have to remember that the EU was supposed to be just a free trade block but now due to its desires and blindsight it has destroyed the economies of many of its members, we are lucky we haven't because we are one of the top economies but been part of the EU has greatly limited our growth and there is more than enough evidence to the lives its tipped over the edge.

The one biggest worry about the EU and yes it is Immigration is the fact it is uncontrolled, when you have a prosperous country who is part of a block that is adding more and more members from poor economies then there is a massive attraction for all the low skilled population to come across to countries like Germany and the UK and because its uncontrolled it has the effect of when the EU economy is bad and the Euro is failing then we tend to be the only target for legal immigration and this has several negative effects..

It drives wages down for the poor.
It makes big money for the big coorperates who are often using tax avoidance methods thus not putting back into the ecomony
It hits our medical services, the majority of hospitals now have multi-million pound debts to so called benefits tourists, it has over the last 2 decades increased the time it takes to see a doctor from 24hrs to 2weeks in some cases.
It hits housing and guess what, our own needy citizens are coming second to Immigration when it comes to housing.
It hits schooling and education - we now have such a shortage of school places and on top of that we now have such a high number of non- English speaking pupils that it is having a negative effect on the education of our children

There are many more and you may argue that its the government in power that's to blame for not building more houses and schools but you are wrong, there is only so much the infracstructure can cope with until demand outstrips supply and as the EU refuses to recognise anything but the freedom of movement, it can only get worse as the baltic nations join the block..

So I ask you to look at the evidence of past and present which I can present to you to what damage the EU is having on your average family as oppose to some scaremongerer trying to predict the future and proclaiming doom and gloom with no factual evidence.

I get it, you're frustrated and annoyed at the result and I have true sympathy for that, but you also have to realise there are actually 2 sides to any coin and when you say brexit with damage the family on the edge, then what about the damage remaining will do which is actually based on real historical evidence.

It wasn't fun for the families of the ford van plant employees when the EU gave Turkey 80million to sweeten them to a deal to move closer to joining the EU, this 80million was to expand the Turkeys Industry and led to the closure of our own Ford van factories, this is just one of many things that only gets the media at a local level but exposes the EU for what it is and how it treats our membership.

So next time you make these opinions about families been tipped over the edge then consider it has in fact been going on for years but tends to get surpressed as the Government has no control nor does it want to be critised for it, like I say IMHO staying is the worse option and I have yet to see you make a good case for actually remaining that can be backed up.
 
I'd disagree that it gets supressed. We see billion lost in Tax evasion but see losses to the EU as the headline news. The media and government have used the EU as a scape goat for decades. An easy deflection from enforcing home policies that would make a difference.
And yes of course we could have invested in infrastructure. Homes, schools, transport. Made jobs for UK workers (whatever their colour) but we've been on a path of private investment and strangly they always seem to want to take the easy profit route rather than the long term good of the country route so we get rolled over time and time again. We bailout if they lose they walk away with a profit if they win.
The UK has been shaped to allow the few to make off the backs of the many. And cleverly sold to voters as them all being one of the few.

We have less (had less) control in the EU because we chose not to fully commit. Like a marriage where we still wanted an option to play the field.

I'm not frustrated or annoyed. Its politics and I've been around long enough to know frustration doesn't change things. It will be what it will be. I'll say my part and you'll say yours and little will change.

My kids will do what they think right as will others.
 
Its just greed. We don't have british industries as such just companies running them in the UK while it suits.
If more of a profit xan be made outside the UK they layoff and move. Pure money talk.
 
Watched a documentary about the last shirt manufacturer in Leicester.
All the other manufacturer's had shut down, and they were on the brink of shutting down themselves.
Moved production to China and what they would pay in wages per hour in Britain they payed per week in China.
They now are the biggest manufacturer of shirts in the world.
 
When I was young and Ted Heath said well what do you all think of joining the common market? Well we mostly thought it a good idea. Whats not too like we had a market every Saturday in our village and it was great. So a grand european market lots of goods and money exchanging, what could go wrong. Well.... it seems Teddy was not really telling the truth. It seems the Coronation Oath was broken. Tony Blair adroitly repealed the one of the only two remaining laws for which the sentence was hanging by the neck until you were dead,in 1994. One was burning of shipyards (still remains) the other was treason, it was that particulary he got rid of.
I think he was wise in retrospect. Our Sovereign powers of (We the people) were ceded to foreign powers, which is treason at law. We the electorate are to be listened to and obeyed, not the other way around. However it appears that it came about that we are suddenly in an unelected dictatorship or whatever name you would care to call it. We the people did NOT sign up for that. So.... we decided no we will go to our original position: elected persons to do our (the peoples will) will. A government ruled by the people. Do you have a problem with that? Tough, the people have spoken.
 
as i see it, that gina miller has persued a court case which has decided that by law, parliament has to be involved i n invoking article 50 to exit the EU. fair enough, but as i recall, parliament was never involved in the ted heath entry in the 70's. that was decidede by a referendum in which the majority voted NO, but that heath git decided that the non-voters would have saidd yES if they had bothered to vote, so that was it. we joined illegally, so why should the law be invoked to leave something that we never legally joined?
 
The point I make is that it was not just it was not legal it was illegal and treason throughout.
 
I find it a little odd to see those who a few months ago were no doubt banging on about bringing sovereignty back, and the undemocratic nature of the EU now frothing at the mouth about the notion that the UK's democratically elected representatives (at least) should have a vote on the government's proposed brexit plan.

Being as that brexit plan can't possibly match the often contradictory pledges made by the various Leave campaigns, it'd be completely undemocratic to simply leave an unelected Prime Minister to decide how this is to happen by herself.

The vote to both have your cake and eat it means that at some stage reality will need to intervene and we'll actually have to decide whether we're going to eat the cake, or have the cake, or maybe eat part of it so we can still have part of it.

Personally I reckon it's more democratic for us (or at least our MPs) to have a say in sorting this mess out rather than leaving it to basically 4 people to take these crucial decisions behind closed doors on the basis of a very close referendum result conducted before any of the actual details had been worked out, so the country was voting blind on gut instinct (or whichever of the lies they'd chosen to believe) rather than on what the final Brexit package will look like.

Something to ponder on is that there will be many like me who voted remain (on the basis of staying in to reform it, not because it's all perfect) but would prefer that if we're going to leave then we do it properly and pull out of the free trade arrangements that have resulted in a huge trade imbalance with the EU after the weak Euro allowed German companies to undercut ours, rather than ending up with the worst of all worlds - huge trade imbalance, still paying into the EU for the privilege of maintaining that trade imbalance, free movement of people, still having to comply with pretty much all the regulations, but having no democratic say in any of it.

The EU as an institution really wasn't the problem, neoliberalism is the problem and won't be solved by ditching the democratic side of the EU but keeping all the neoliberal elements of it as the Tories currently seem to want to do.
 
I think your missing the point here, we are not banging on as you put it, it was made very clear by Gove that to leave the EU also means leaving the EU structure which includes the single market etc, how can you expect to vote to leave a trade block and cherry pick the bits you want, so leaving is leaving - what is there to bring into parliament then to actually agree on the triggering of the article?
Once it is triggered and formal steps are taken then all EU laws will be enshrined into British law, of these we may decide to get rid of some or change them and Parliament will have a say on this as is there position to do so, so that is half the scare-tactics gone, with Remoaners claiming working rights etc will be lost.. no any alterations will go through the usual channels.
What is undemocratic is the fact the vote to leave was given to the people, it was announced, it was written down on every leaflet and it was promised, leave does mean leave and yes because the single market in within the EU structure then that is also part of the leave, this agan was made clear throughout the campaign - so what exactly is Clegg and his team asking for when they say we want a Parliamentary say on the terms of triggering article 50 .... What terms? .. its a process is the triggering of article 50, the negotiations and terms follow the process and as the process is part of an evolving system IE, the terms will be created as a step by step process and an intitial agreement on one term can effect other terms so you cannot give a list of terms before you have triggered the process as you haven't sat down with the EU and discussed anything.. To be forced to explain what you aim to achieve in detail or want will take away with our strong bargaining hand and will undermine our position, we will not get anything we want and it will drag the process out by years... think about having a strong hand in poker but you are forced to put your cards on the table while all the other players don't, you will get very little from the pot even if you have the best hand as other players can see what you have and will not entertain playing on until your hand is poor and they have the better hand.
All this is doing is dragging out and attempting to block the process, it will do more damage to the process and our strong position here than I think you realise, again I'll reiterate that all final agreements with our trade partners and changers to our laws will be up for parliamentary vote and debate once they have been agreed and formalised but you cannot expect to do this at the starting post... akin to asking what the result of the race is before the horses have set-off.
This legal challange was brought by 3 remoaners who have personal self interest, one not even living in this country, they didn't understand what impact this would actually have if they won, also to note the position of the judges on the high court panel been put into question with there own historic links to the EU meaning their impartiality cannot be guaranteed.
We are leaving the EU, we are leaving the single market that is part of the EU so what exactly do you think it is achieving in asking to show our intentions to the world before we can possibly know due to the nature of the process?
 
Its designed to hinder the process all the rest of europe's eyes are on us.If we get a good deal maybe others will follow, so Expect a rough deal from them. We have got buying power on our side no matter what happens they will want to trade. (china is not in the eu and look at what we import from there) The country has voted so lets get on with it.
 
I think your missing the point here, we are not banging on as you put it, it was made very clear by Gove that to leave the EU also means leaving the EU structure which includes the single market etc, how can you expect to vote to leave a trade block and cherry pick the bits you want, so leaving is leaving - what is there to bring into parliament then to actually agree on the triggering of the article?
There were many contradictory claims and statements made in the campaign, many argued that we could leave the EU and still either be in the common market, have access to the common market or be part of a Europe wide tariff free, free trade area.

They also variously claimed that none of the rules that any other countries who have that level of access have to follow would need to apply to the UK, so we could scrap free movement of people, we could make up our own rules and regulations and not follow EU ones, we wouldn't need to pay anything into the EU etc etc etc.

Were they able to actually negotiate such a deal, then you'd possibly have a point, but if (as seems likely) what they actually end up negotiating is substantially different then it would be totally undemocratic for parliament not to have a say in the final decision / negotiating position. Either way though legally in a parliamentary democracy where the referendum was made on the basis of it being an advisory referendum, the judges were entirely right to say that any decision must be put to a vote in parliament - the alternative is basically fascism where the leader takes the final decision alone, not representative (or any other form of) democracy. That's really not a precedent we want to be setting, certainly not following a referendum decision where one of the key arguments was around improving UK democratic accountability / decision making.

You may well be ok with the idea of actually exiting the entire free trade area and there being import and export tariffs imposed in UK - EU trade, and tbh there are significant merits to this argument that I'm increasingly in favour of the more I look at it, but this definitely is not what the UK voted for in the referendum, it's not what those leading the leave campaign were saying prior to the vote.

here's one of the things Gove said in the campaign.
The UK would still be able to trade freely within Europe even if it left the EU, Michael Gove has said.

The justice secretary said the UK could be part of Europe's free trade area to avoid trade tariffs, even if it was not a member of the EU single market.
 
There were many contradictory claims and statements made in the campaign, many argued that we could leave the EU and still either be in the common market, have access to the common market or be part of a Europe wide tariff free, free trade area.

They also variously claimed that none of the rules that any other countries who have that level of access have to follow would need to apply to the UK, so we could scrap free movement of people, we could make up our own rules and regulations and not follow EU ones, we wouldn't need to pay anything into the EU etc etc etc.

Were they able to actually negotiate such a deal, then you'd possibly have a point, but if (as seems likely) what they actually end up negotiating is substantially different then it would be totally undemocratic for parliament not to have a say in the final decision / negotiating position. Either way though legally in a parliamentary democracy where the referendum was made on the basis of it being an advisory referendum, the judges were entirely right to say that any decision must be put to a vote in parliament - the alternative is basically fascism where the leader takes the final decision alone, not representative (or any other form of) democracy. That's really not a precedent we want to be setting, certainly not following a referendum decision where one of the key arguments was around improving UK democratic accountability / decision making.

You may well be ok with the idea of actually exiting the entire free trade area and there being import and export tariffs imposed in UK - EU trade, and tbh there are significant merits to this argument that I'm increasingly in favour of the more I look at it, but this definitely is not what the UK voted for in the referendum, it's not what those leading the leave campaign were saying prior to the vote.

here's one of the things Gove said in the campaign.

What Gove said there is completely correct even with WTO applied this doesn't mean tariffs will be imposed on everything, there will be many goods that will still be traded free as no member state nor the EU would ruin members economy to make a point to Britain, also to add Canada has a free trade deal now with zero of the costs or movement, Turkey trades many good without free movement or membership fee, so we go on a WTO be it long or short term but it's far more beneficial than the set up we have now...there has been a misleading campaign by remain who kept on saying that we would loose access to the single market which is in no way true whether we leave the single market or not we will always have access.
The point I was trying to get across with the high Court ruling is its based on a technicality and actually has no benefit to either remain or leave to bring it into effect, it's like a murderer showing the officer where he buried a body but not been read his rights so he cannot be charged with the murder ( it's happened) ... just because the referendum wasn't on paper made binding is the only reason we are here and normally it hasn't been an issue as it's just the way it's always been done - no one expected 3 members of Joe public to pull it on a technicality and that is all it is .... so the voice of 3people has dropped a spanner in the works of the opinions of 17million and it changes nothing to the result except costing the tax payer millions going through the court system to be eventually overturned.
 
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Let's be frank, we buy 85% of our stuff from abroad. And send very little these days. If they limit what we can buy, we damage their markets more than ours. They'll never stop selling us stuff. The fluctuation in FOREX will calm down soon and if people keep upping their prices 10%, then we'll end up with businesses in the UK starting up if we can make things cheaper in the end. So that's a positive too, I guess...?
 
We have a couple of smallish businesses on our tilersforums.co.uk site that buy from abroad and sell in the UK. They're classed as manufacturers, but in essence it's made and sent to them exactly how they sell it so they're more kinda importers.

Price Increases - http://www.tilersforums.co.uk/threads/price-increases.81570/

Very good thread on it here. Ray TT is Porcel-Thin, a British brand that supplies market-leading thin porcelain tiles, some 3m long by 1.8m wide!!!!! The first on earth to sell them so big. Sells them all over the world. The other is ATSDiamondTools who is the OP of the thread. He 'makes' diamond blades and other cutting discs and things. Both I think buy using the US Dollar, but buy from China.

They're well in the know about this importing thing.
 
What Gove said there is completely correct even with WTO applied this doesn't mean tariffs will be imposed on everything, there will be many goods that will still be traded free as no member state nor the EU would ruin members economy to make a point to Britain, also to add Canada has a free trade deal now with zero of the costs or movement, Turkey trades many good without free movement or membership fee, so we go on a WTO be it long or short term but it's far more beneficial than the set up we have now...there has been a misleading campaign by remain who kept on saying that we would loose access to the single market which is in no way true whether we leave the single market or not we will always have access.
The point I was trying to get across with the high Court ruling is its based on a technicality and actually has no benefit to either remain or leave to bring it into effect, it's like a murderer showing the officer where he buried a body but not been read his rights so he cannot be charged with the murder ( it's happened) ... just because the referendum wasn't on paper made binding is the only reason we are here and normally it hasn't been an issue as it's just the way it's always been done - no one expected 3 members of Joe public to pull it on a technicality and that is all it is .... so the voice of 3people has dropped a spanner in the works of the opinions of 17million and it changes nothing to the result except costing the tax payer millions going through the court system to be eventually overturned.
it won't be overturned, their legal ruling is a correct interpretation of the law, as was completely clear in the terms of the original referendum legislation.

Parliament will make the final decision be it to accept May's proposals, amend them, reject them, or send the final proposals back to the people for a 2nd binding referendum.

We don't live in a county with an all powerful ruler who determines the country's fate by themselves without reference to parliament, we live in a parliamentary democracy.

I'm finding it quite concerning that some of the arguments against this court case and parliament getting to vote on this (eg that made by one of UKIP's leadership candidates) is veering dangerously close to support for a fascist state - judges should be answerable to the government, the leader should take this huge decision without reference to parliament etc.

In your view it may be a mere technicality, but it's an incredibly important technicality as anything else would mean we no longer lived in a parliamentary democracy.
 

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