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T

The Launderer

We briefly looked at this technology and decided that there was no evidence to support claims being made for it. Got this letter from MCS about half an hour ago:

"17th October 2012

Dear Solar Thermal Installer

MCS has recently become aware of a number of products that are being sold into the UK market with Solar Keymark approval specified as Thermodynamic Panels that initially would appear to fit into the scope of MIS3001. In most cases these collectors are typically filled directly with a refrigerant.
Following a significant number of calls into MCS we are aiming to clarify with the manufacturers the technical aspects of this product type and whilst this work is being undertaken we urge installers to consider the following in relation to any such system:
1. Is all of the necessary data present to complete section H of SAP to determine the estimated annual contribution of the system – we have identified some systems where this data is not present
2. Do the collectors and associated heatpump have the required regulatory approvals in relation to its construction and performance – a heatpump certified to EN14511 may fulfil these requirements, MCS 020 may also need to be considered.
3. When undertaking the installation of any product that requires the composition of and / or connection into a Fluorinated Gas transfer pipe, do all of the appropriate operatives hold the necessary qualifications / registrations to undertake this work? Please note that this is a legal requirement.
4. Have you clarified with your certification body that your certification covers the type of work potentially being undertaken, especially in relation to the use of refrigerant gases?
MCS is working with the manufacturers and is seeking to clarify whether and how these systems may fit into the MCS scheme, in the meantime we strongly advise that you carefully consider if any and all of the above criteria, along with any other scheme requirements can be met when fitting these types of system. At present there is no formal acknowledgement that these products will be included within the RHI.
It is essential to be aware that if the systems are found not be compliant with the MCS scheme then the MCS installation certificate may become invalid and the customer and subsequently yourselves would then be disadvantaged. At the moment, we have not yet taken the decision to suspend the registration of these products with the Scheme until we have had further discussion with the manufacturers, however, please note that this may be an action that is taken until the requirements for the Scheme can be specified fully. We will be emailing all installers again as soon as we have concluded our research into these types of products
Thank you,

Kind regards,
 
I have no opinion one way or the other but the letter just seems to suggest that the regulatory bodies aren't up to speed on these products, not that they don't work.
 
it's more about which category they should be placed in, which is not helped by the manufacturers insistence that they are solar panels and not heat pumps, despite the plain fact that they actually are heat pumps.

If they'd certified them properly in the first place instead of sweaking them in through the back door via an old solar kitemark listing, there'd not be a problem now.
 
If they get classed as Heat Pumps and have been fitted on homes with mains gas they will not qualify for any RHI.

They will then have been miss sold.

They may even have been fitted by MCS solar thermal installers who are not MCS heat pump installers.

REAL audits , very serious non conformances, trading standards and then the solicitors trying to get customers monies back.

I am pleased we never got involved as its going to get very very messy !
 
If they get classed as Heat Pumps and have been fitted on homes with mains gas they will not qualify for any RHI.

There is no doubt they are heat pumps. How many of the installs have the heat pump part of the install covered by MCS both for the product and the installer. I would hazard a guess at few if any.

So few if any will get RHI regardless of mains gas or otherwise.
 
If they get classed as Heat Pumps and have been fitted on homes with mains gas they will not qualify for any RHI.

They will then have been miss sold.

They may even have been fitted by MCS solar thermal installers who are not MCS heat pump installers.

REAL audits , very serious non conformances, trading standards and then the solicitors trying to get customers monies back.

I am pleased we never got involved as its going to get very very messy !

I thought mains gas only applied to the RHPP not the RHI
 
You may ask if this is a heat pump, why was it not registered as such? Might the answer be that it would not qualify under the European definition of producing sufficient renewable energy.

I am one of those who wrote to Gemsere voicing my concerns about the technology. There were claims being made by those promoting it that could not be substantiated. The best I could find out was when ambient temperatures approach zero, the COP reaches one. By my reckoning, if used for space heating in somewhere without mains gas in Scotland, it could be more expensive than oil.

I also have concerns that there was no facility to de-ice/defrost the panel when subzero temperatures were experienced.

This stuff may be OK for Mediterranean climates, but not for Northern Europe.

I am relieved this has been knocked on the head and those making unfounded claims hopefully prevented from misleading consumers.
 
You may ask if this is a heat pump, why was it not registered as such? Might the answer be that it would not qualify under the European definition of producing sufficient renewable energy.

I am one of those who wrote to Gemsere voicing my concerns about the technology. There were claims being made by those promoting it that could not be substantiated. The best I could find out was when ambient temperatures approach zero, the COP reaches one. By my reckoning, if used for space heating in somewhere without mains gas in Scotland, it could be more expensive than oil.

I also have concerns that there was no facility to de-ice/defrost the panel when subzero temperatures were experienced.

This stuff may be OK for Mediterranean climates, but not for Northern Europe.

I am relieved this has been knocked on the head and those making unfounded claims hopefully prevented from misleading consumers.

There are many many badly designed Heat Pump Systems (using MCS approved products) costing more to run than oil. Heat Pumps properly installed in the right circumstances will work well. Unless the installer takes the time to ensure Heat pumps are suitable for the property with particular regard to insulation, and heat emitters the pumps have to be run at too high a temperature and the COP rating drops like a stone (and thats on good quality pumps).

I really dread to think what the COP rating will be on this type of equipment. Many of the companies selling this stuff are sales organisations with no regard for their customers interests.

Regrettably, they have been selling like hot cakes. Only last week we were contacted by one of those companies asking for assistance to install because they coudn't cope with the demand - and this is a fairly big Solar PV / Solar Thermal Company so I can only imagine how many systems they have sold (mis-sold)
 
However much red tape there is in this industry it seems MCS do not have a grasp of things. MSC should start employing people who know about these technologies, it's not about writing standards it's about understanding how the technology works and being one step ahead to stop any situations like this from occurring.

The QANGO needs a kick in the backside !!
 
To be fair to Gemserve, how are they to know if a product listed under Solar Keymark meets all criteria without examining and testing every product? The idea is that there is reciprocity between the product registration systems to help reduce red tape. The fault is not that of Gemserve.

It has not taken very long for them to act. As I understand the matter has been discussed by both the MCS Heat Pump and Solar Thermal working groups at their most recent meetings following concerns being raised. This means Gemserve have taken expert advice from industry representatives and acted in an informed manner.
 
Who needs trouble from without when so many see it their duty to cause it from within:banghead: We like to blame Greg Barker for our ills but it's blokes filled with envy and arrogance that have and are causing us the most grief.

Good work yet again.
 
Who needs trouble from without when so many see it their duty to cause it from within:banghead: We like to blame Greg Barker for our ills but it's blokes filled with envy and arrogance that have and are causing us the most grief.

Good work yet again.

Not sure what you mean by this post. If you have been fitting thermo-dynamics then defend your position. If you cant defend it don't come on here and try and cover up your own bad practices by name calling. As i said in the OP We wouldn't fit this technology because we weren't convinced by the figures. I have seen nothing since that has made me change my mind.

These are not solar thermal systems and if you have been selling them as such then you could have a serious problem. We could have fitted these systems if we wanted but chose not to. Why would we be envious of others who take on work we would rather not get involved in? If there's any arrogance being shown its coming from companies that fit this type of technology in order to make a profit with out any thought about the value they are giving to their customers.

Solarsavings - If I have misunderstood the sentiment of your post please let me know and I will withdraw these comments.
 
Don't worry I can defend my post and myself.

Because I couldn't get the information I needed I have gone to the trouble and expense of buying and fitting two system and have one on test to see if the claims stack up. What have others done? looked at the available information, what little there is and decided it doesn't work.

There are far too many people out there that believe solar thermal and PV won't work in northern europe and that they are a waste of time. But are they? they certainly are in the winter months, has that stopped you or the solar king selling them? So I ask you why will thermodynamic systems be any worse?

And for what it's worth the system does work and work well but at what cost and how it will perform through the winter months only time will tell.
 
There are far too many people out there that believe solar thermal and PV won't work in northern europe and that they are a waste of time. But are they? they certainly are in the winter months, has that stopped you or the solar king selling them? So I ask you why will thermodynamic systems be any worse?

And for what it's worth the system does work and work well but at what cost and how it will perform through the winter months only time will tell.

There is a big difference. When selling PV I can accurately predict what average income my customers are likely to receive.

By your own admission time will only tell what the performance of thermodynamics will be in the winter time. You also agree that couldn't get the information you needed to see if the claims stack up.

If you have bought these systems and are testing the results before selling them to the public then fair play to you.

If however you have done what many others have done and sold these systems with promises of savings and RHI payments then that is that you need to defend
 
If you have bought these systems and are testing the results before selling them to the public then fair play to you.


I did that with solar thermal and PV. Did you or the solar king?

By your own admission time will only tell what the performance of thermodynamics will be in the winter time. You also agree that couldn't get the information you needed to see if the claims stack up.


In the early days you couldn't get information on how solar thermal or pv would work either it didn't stop us driving the industry forward. From experience I can now tell my customers that both are next to useless in the winter because they are next to useless and don't work at night. The thermodynamic system certainly seems to.

If however you have done what many others have done and sold these systems with promises of savings and RHI payments then that is that you need to defend


If, and when I'm happy that the system does work and the economics make sense then I won't have any problem selling it providing I'm convinced.


 
Not sure what you mean by this post. If you have been fitting thermo-dynamics then defend your position. If you cant defend it don't come on here and try and cover up your own bad practices by name calling. As i said in the OP We wouldn't fit this technology because we weren't convinced by the figures. I have seen nothing since that has made me change my mind.

These are not solar thermal systems and if you have been selling them as such then you could have a serious problem. We could have fitted these systems if we wanted but chose not to. Why would we be envious of others who take on work we would rather not get involved in? If there's any arrogance being shown its coming from companies that fit this type of technology in order to make a profit with out any thought about the value they are giving to their customers.

Solarsavings - If I have misunderstood the sentiment of your post please let me know and I will withdraw these comments.
I think you're out of order here tbh.

It wouldn't have taken much effort to have searched the forum to find out that solarsavings is actually doing all of us and the industry in general a favour by trialling these products in a monitored test situation to find out how the claims stack up against reality.

There's zero reason to think that these products won't actually work, and work well in the correct set up. The problem is that they're potentially misclassified for MCS purposes, and because of the attempt to keep this classification they've not published the COP figures as they would have to if they were listed as heat pumps.

I don't actually see why anyone would particularly need a heat pump accreditation to fit them, as they're very basic plug and play bits of kit*, probably simpler to install than a standard solar water heating system in a lot of respects, and there's certainly no need for any of the complex heating load sizing issues that come into play with heat pumps. They also certainly do take a significant amount of their energy from the sun directly, so are really more of a hybrid between a heat pump and solar panel, hence the classification issues - they just have the advantage of being able to also draw energy from the surrounding air when the sun isn't shining at lower COP's (but still probably better than an ashp as they don't have to power a big fan unit).

I'm not saying they haven't been mis-sold, as they clearly have been by some companies, but then so have PV and solar water heating systems, the problem is with the companies mis selling the products not the products themselves.



* though an fgas certificate would be needed - something that I don't believe is needed for MCs heat pump certification either, so is a separate issue.
 
No envy and arrogance, just a passion for an industry I believe in. I have no wish to see Solar Thermal dragged in to the mud in the way PV has been by businesses more interested in a quick buck than serving the needs of customers. Please note, I am not saying this as any reflection on Solar Savings. You would not have gone to the extent you have in evaluating this equipment if you were in that camp. It is also highly unlikely you would contribute to this forum either. However there are others out there without your scruples.

Sadly data for cambridge is still unlikely to substantiate whether this technology will work in off grid areas in parts of northern Scotland. My issue with this kit is the claims made for it relating to space heating. A cost effective space heating solution is still the holy grail of renewables. I would not have bothered challenging the veracity of the claims being made had this not been the case. This is not the first time claims have been made for systems using solar thermal for space heating. When you drill down, there is never any data available for locations north of the Wash.

As a supplier, why should you have to find out whether it works or not? Would you buy a car and crash it to see if you died or survived?

I know exactly what the performance of ST and PV is where I operate. I advise prospective customers as to likely performance and let them make their own reasoned decision as to whether the proposed technology is right for them. I cannot do this with this technology. If you go back and look at the original thread started on this topic, you will see I am not alone in my concerns.

I can understand your frustration, I would love it to do what it says on the tin. Taking time to write to Ofgem is not something I do lightly. Unfortunately if someone ends up defecating on their own doorstep with this stuff, they defecate on everyone else's as well.
 
I think you're out of order here tbh.

It wouldn't have taken much effort to have searched the forum to find out that solarsavings is actually doing all of us and the industry in general a favour by trialling these products in a monitored test situation to find out how the claims stack up against reality.

There's zero reason to think that these products won't actually work, and work well in the correct set up. The problem is that they're potentially misclassified for MCS purposes, and because of the attempt to keep this classification they've not published the COP figures as they would have to if they were listed as heat pumps.

I don't actually see why anyone would particularly need a heat pump accreditation to fit them, as they're very basic plug and play bits of kit*, probably simpler to install than a standard solar water heating system in a lot of respects, and there's certainly no need for any of the complex heating load sizing issues that come into play with heat pumps. They also certainly do take a significant amount of their energy from the sun directly, so are really more of a hybrid between a heat pump and solar panel, hence the classification issues - they just have the advantage of being able to also draw energy from the surrounding air when the sun isn't shining at lower COP's (but still probably better than an ashp as they don't have to power a big fan unit).

I'm not saying they haven't been mis-sold, as they clearly have been by some companies, but then so have PV and solar water heating systems, the problem is with the companies mis selling the products not the products themselves.



* though an fgas certificate would be needed - something that I don't believe is needed for MCs heat pump certification either, so is a separate issue.

I am not out of order for defending myself from accusations of envy or arrogance.

Of course it is to be applauded that Solarsavings is carrying out research and by his responses it is now obvious to me that he isn't one of the installers that I have a problem with. But why should he have to do research on systems being sold to the public in large quantities - The research should have been carried out by the manufacturers and wholesalers and independently verified.

I am not sure what is happening elsewhere in the country but up here in Scotland there are full page adverts in the papers, call centres, snake oil salesman all pushing this technology. It is being sold as a solar thermal product.

They are also being sold as complete heating systems so in my opinion it is essential that someone carrys out "complex heat loading that come into play with heat pumps" THEY ARE HEAT PUMPS. The reason Air Source Heat pumps have such a big fan is so that they can push large volumes of air and extract the small amount of heat that is available. I have no doubt that on a sunny day the solar gain produced by the panels will produce a high COP rating. My concern is on dull days, cold days, night time (from 4.00pm in Scotland) the tiny amount of heat energy being captured by these panels will see a COP rating well below 1.0. So in the heating season customers using these systems will find their bills doubling or trebling from when they used to use gas or oil.

Am I wrong? Maybe? I would like someone to prove it!!
 
I am not out of order for defending myself from accusations of envy or arrogance.
well you certainly came in swinging on this thread, and seemed intent on tarring everyone with the same brush, but let's move on eh.

I am not sure what is happening elsewhere in the country but up here in Scotland there are full page adverts in the papers, call centres, snake oil salesman all pushing this technology. It is being sold as a solar thermal product.

They are also being sold as complete heating systems so in my opinion it is essential that someone carrys out "complex heat loading that come into play with heat pumps" THEY ARE HEAT PUMPS. The reason Air Source Heat pumps have such a big fan is so that they can push large volumes of air and extract the small amount of heat that is available.
as I said, this is more of a problem with the companies selling the stuff than the actual technology itself.

If they're being sold as full house heating systems, then that's obviously a different matter, but I've only seen them sold as water heating systems - though I know they do offer full heating options.

For the full heating systems obviously proper heatload calcs would be needed, and tbh I'm extremely dubious that the systems should be fitted for this purpose in anything other than passive houses or houses that are otherwise extremely well insulated. Though maybe if the alternative was straight resistive heating then it could be justified.

I have no doubt that on a sunny day the solar gain produced by the panels will produce a high COP rating. My concern is on dull days, cold days, night time (from 4.00pm in Scotland) the tiny amount of heat energy being captured by these panels will see a COP rating well below 1.0. So in the heating season customers using these systems will find their bills doubling or trebling from when they used to use gas or oil.

Am I wrong? Maybe? I would like someone to prove it!!
well it'd be easy enough to disprove your statement about the COP falling below 1 theoretically.

The product uses the same technology essentially as any other air source heat pump, and as I said before, doesn't have a fan unit to power. There is no logical reason at all that in a properly set up system the COP of these units won't be at least the same or better than an ASHP operating at the same air temperatures if correctly sized. IF they're cooling the surrounding air faster than the air can be replaced then this will impact on the air temperature and COP, but even in no wind situations natural convection laws should apply, so air will sink as it's cooled drawing in new air over the panels. Even at -10 or lower the COP should be above 1 though, as is the COP on ASHP even when they're using resistive loads to boost the heat, and defrost the unit. I agree it probably won't be much above 1, but I don't see why it would fall to below 1.

My concern with it as a heating unit is that I'm sure I read somewhere that it actually cuts out at -10, so would need an immersion back up or alternative heating source capable of supplying the full heat demand for the property below -10 deg if used as a heating source as opposed to just water heating.


To conclude - I tend to agree with you re using these systems for full house heating, particularly in the wilds of scotland. I'm far less concerned about them if used for water heating only, and think that for this purpose only they're a reasonably fit for solar water heating MCS requirements.
 

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