Certification Questions

[Paul Webb]

I have just replaced an old style wired fuse board with a modern consumer unit.

When removing the old unit, the 32 AMP wire fuse that supplied two 2.5mm cables to the dining room and lounge sockets I assumed to be a ring main but found no continuity between any of the wires and on further investigation found that it was in fact two radial circuits connected to the single fuse (naughty!)

I don’t want to have to re-wire to install a ring main, so is it within regulation to separate these two radials and supply them from a 20A RCD? Certainly looks safe on paper as 2.5mm is rated at I believe 27amps?

Another frustration is that the layout of the two radials is not consistent, one feeds the dining room and part of the lounge, the other feeds only two sockets in the lounge. I was thinking these should be labelled as “Lounge and Dining Room Sockets (partial)” in the consumer unit. Again, is this allowed?

There is a ring main that supplies the upstairs and the kitchen – odd considering the radial design downstairs – which some bright spark has taken a 2.5” spur off the back of one of the kitchen sockets to supply the downstairs toilet light. Again – how does this stand from a regulatory point of view. I don’t see a safety issue as long as this is labelled up in the consumer unit.

Also in the kitchen, the original 45 amp cooker wire has been fed into a 13A fused spur and the under cupboard kitchen lights & a double 13A socket (ran with 1.5mm twin and earth) has been fed. When I installed the consumer unit it made sense to radial this off the kitchen/upstairs ring main at the unit itself. Doesn’t look regs, but don’t see any danger here as the 13A fuse in the spur would protect from overload of either the sockets or lighting.

I plan to get the installation inspected and signed off. Would all/any of this pass, or is remedial work needed?

Many thanks

 

[Octopus]

I have just replaced an old style wired fuse board with a modern consumer unit.

I plan to get the installation inspected and signed off. Would all/any of this pass, or is remedial work needed?

Many thanks

Is this your house?

What made you think doing it yourself was a good idea? ..... not many sparks will sign off AND notify under part P, work they haven't done ..................

 

[ferg]

As above, you will be lucky to get someone else to sign it off.

 

[Paul Webb]

Unless it is a full re-wire or you dig out and inspect every inch of cable, all electricians are to some extent signing off someone else's work? Does no electrician ever sign off unless they have installed every piece of cable from the meter box onward?

 

[The Ghost]

If I were to "third party" sign off work I would normally only do so if first the design for the circuits were inspected by me. Then I would need to see the install as it progresses with testing at appropriate stages. I would say that circuits that you are describing are messy and not within the "deemed to satisfy" as conventional Ring Final Circuits. Therefore I would not sign off such work. I would need to be satisfied as to the competency of the person doing the work, which from what you describe would not meet the level of competency required. This is not just me talking. The scheme I am with does allow third party signing which is very specific as to what it will endorse and the conditions I must meet to be supported by the scheme to third party sign.
I would say you might be better employing an electrician to make the radials you descibe into a ring for one thing. I am not trying to rain on your parade just trying to inform you on a legal/regs level what is required.
When you say you don't see a safety issue, the only way you can qualify that is with a full set of tests as required in BS7671. I can assure you that gaining that knowledge requires quite a bit of study, money and experience.

 

[Octopus]

Unless it is a full re-wire or you dig out and inspect every inch of cable, all electricians are to some extent signing off someone else's work? Does no electrician ever sign off unless they have installed every piece of cable from the meter box onward?

You clearly don't understand the requirements, scope of work, etc.

So if your house burns down in a months time and the fire brigade states the source is the fuse board, and your insurance refuses to pay up, can you afford to cover the losses?

 

[buzzlightyear]

I plan to get the installation inspected and signed off. Would all/any of this pass, or is remedial work needed?

there two hopes bob hope and no hope!

 

[ferg]

You have a point on this to be fair.

In order to sign this off I would do the test and inspection, Undo all your work and then re do it myself. Not a mammoth task on a CU change if I'm honest.

The bulk of the work on a CU change is normally the test and inspection.

 

[Billsays]

I have just replaced an old style wired fuse board with a modern consumer unit.

When removing the old unit, the 32 AMP wire fuse that supplied two 2.5mm cables to the dining room and lounge sockets I assumed to be a ring main but found no continuity between any of the wires and on further investigation found that it was in fact two radial circuits connected to the single fuse (naughty!)

I don’t want to have to re-wire to install a ring main, so is it within regulation to separate these two radials and supply them from a 20A RCD? Certainly looks safe on paper as 2.5mm is rated at I believe 27amps?

Another frustration is that the layout of the two radials is not consistent, one feeds the dining room and part of the lounge, the other feeds only two sockets in the lounge. I was thinking these should be labelled as “Lounge and Dining Room Sockets (partial)” in the consumer unit. Again, is this allowed?

There is a ring main that supplies the upstairs and the kitchen – odd considering the radial design downstairs – which some bright spark has taken a 2.5” spur off the back of one of the kitchen sockets to supply the downstairs toilet light. Again – how does this stand from a regulatory point of view. I don’t see a safety issue as long as this is labelled up in the consumer unit.

Also in the kitchen, the original 45 amp cooker wire has been fed into a 13A fused spur and the under cupboard kitchen lights & a double 13A socket (ran with 1.5mm twin and earth) has been fed. When I installed the consumer unit it made sense to radial this off the kitchen/upstairs ring main at the unit itself. Doesn’t look regs, but don’t see any danger here as the 13A fuse in the spur would protect from overload of either the sockets or lighting.

I plan to get the installation inspected and signed off. Would all/any of this pass, or is remedial work needed?

Many thanks

You have no chance of getting it signed off. You should pay a sparks to do an eicr, then pay him to fix all the departures, he will then give you a satisfactory eicr. It’s about the best you can hope for.

 

[buzzlightyear]

I was told by a insurance lose adjuster once. some body did that to their house and it burned down
where is the test certs for this. try to blame a sparky said that he had fitted it .
he came clean .sorry we will not pay you for the house has burned down.

 

[Paul Webb]

Thanks Bill.
So actually I am no worse off than I was before.
I am 100% safer than when I had the wired unit in place & less likely to have the fire brigade rescuing me from a bedroom window. Can anyone say sensibly why the new installation would be *more* dangerous than the old one?
I haven't made any changes to any of the wiring in the house outside the old unit (the wiring in the kitchen was in place when I bought the house) so at worse I would have to get a spark to put a new unit in place some time in the future.

 

[buzzlightyear]

Thanks Bill.
So actually I am no worse off than I was before.
I am 100% safer than when I had the wired unit in place & less likely to have the fire brigade rescuing me from a bedroom window. Can anyone say sensibly why the new installation would be *more* dangerous than the old one?
I haven't made any changes to any of the wiring in the house outside the old unit (the wiring in the kitchen was in place when I bought the house) so at worse I would have to get a spark to put a new unit in place some time in the future

part p numskull .and your insurance and your solicitor who sells you house.

 

[The Ghost]

I am 100% safer than when

That statement in relation to what is stated above is totally incongruent to put it politely. You are aware that what you have undertaken is notifiable work yes? You are required by law to notify BC a minimum of 48 hours before work commences. If you do not you are commiting an offence. Aside from that you are aware of the impact on sale of a property in such circumstances not to mention the insurance implications?
As to the question of safer, can you put up on here a full set of tests results and schedule of circuits that show that the work you have done is safer?

 

[Octopus]

You can lead a horse to water.....

I'm guessing the OP has no test kit, so how does he even know he has an earth?

 

[Billsays]

Thanks Bill.
So actually I am no worse off than I was before.
I am 100% safer than when I had the wired unit in place & less likely to have the fire brigade rescuing me from a bedroom window. Can anyone say sensibly why the new installation would be *more* dangerous than the old one?
I haven't made any changes to any of the wiring in the house outside the old unit (the wiring in the kitchen was in place when I bought the house) so at worse I would have to get a spark to put a new unit in place some time in the future.

I think you misunderstood my point mate, you have carried out a major piece of electrical work, something you are not qualified to do. you should get a qualified sparks to look at it in conjunction with a full test. Then get him to rectify any faults he finds. Weather your dabbling has made your house safer is impossible to say. Get a test done quickly.

 

[ferg]

The danger comes from inadvertent poor workmanship and not rectifying existing faults.

Poor connections cause fires.

You may think all is well and it may well look ok but one slip up can have catastrophic consequences.

Part of a board change is testing and inspecting the existing installation as over time the installation is degraded.

Most of the time if a board change is required there are other faults to rectify which will not get better over time.

The reason we all now have to fit metal consumer units in domestic premises is the likelihood of a fire starting in one caused by poor workmanship or materials.

 

[Paul Webb]

Thanks all for your suggestions/input. Certainly food for thought.

 

[telectrix]

That statement in relation to what is stated above is totally incongruent to put it politely. You are aware that what you have undertaken is notifiable work yes? You are required by law to notify BC a minimum of 48 hours before work commences. If you do not you are commiting an offence.

So is having a smoke in your van if other workmates travel in it, but never seen anyone prostituted prosecuted for it. it's also an offence to light up in the vehicle if little monsters kids are being transported. also. from the 1872 licencing act, it is illegal to be drunk in a pub. severe penalties may be incurred, e.g. transportation to Australia. think i might go for that one. 10 pints is a hell of a sight cheaper than Ryanair.

 

[Midwest]

Paul have you tested the circuits you've connected to your new CU so that you'll sure they were safe to energise?

Without Sorry for boring the pants of other members, pictured below is a socket I discovered when a new kitchen had been installed in a house. It was a socket on a ring final, that had been plastered over when the house was built circa 1960, the ring was changed to two radials in 2011 when someone replaced the CU. The cables were still live, until hacked out the plaster to reveal this old fossil, and disconnected from the radials.

 

[buzzlightyear]

Thanks all for your suggestions/input. Certainly food for thought

yeah, you have bitten of more then you can chew!