Change in the Law regarding RCDs in Rental Properties

[Spazz]

Thank note taken Oldtimer.

Im going to find out what the welsh minister says in reply to the letter the AM is sending him next week and see where to go from there.

I have a few more contacts and places to go.

I am posting all letters on the Facebook page so if anyone wants to follow it please do.

There is no harm in trying is there?

 

[spark 68]

The thing is Nicholas, an upfront RCD does not comply with the current regs, agreed it is better than not having one at all, but how would you square this, as in written in law ?, I know we have sometimes 'bent' the regs in some situations (again safer than it was), but for someone to actually sign and legislate to break the regs is another matter IMO.

10 years for a rented property - they are still domestic (as far as NAPIT are concerned) - 5 years for commercial

I think you will find the recommended Max is 5 years for rented accommodation, GN3 table 3.2, general domestic (private) is max 10 years.

Some LA's already have requirements above BS7671 (don't forget BS7671 it the minimum requirement) WRT RCD protection on sockets etc., and in some cases have insisted on this requirement on the private sector too, but agreed this depends on the individual LA, and it would be nice to have some consistency.

Some private landlord's insurance companies are also insisting on EICR's and RCD protection too, but again this is dependent on individual companies.

Part Pee, is bad enough (for many reasons), do we really want more 'ill thought out legislation' ?
Iam not disagreeing with you btw, but until the powers that be are all singing from the same hymn sheet, and/or get some common sense, I fear little will change, it is not that the concepts are a bad thing per se, it is just once the Government get involved, you just know they will balls it up, or balls up the implementation of it, which usually results in the legitimate trader being penalised, or have additional costs and paperwork heaped on us while the 'rogue element' will just carry on regardless.

 

[Spazz]

The thing is Nicholas, an upfront RCD does not comply with the current regs, agreed it is better than not having one at all, but how would you square this, as in written in law ?, I know we have sometimes 'bent' the regs in some situations (again safer than it was), but for someone to actually sign and legislate to break the regs is another matter IMO.


I think you will find the recommended Max is 5 years for rented accommodation, GN3 table 3.2, general domestic (private) is max 10 years.

Some LA's already have requirements above BS7671 (don't forget BS7671 it the minimum requirement) WRT RCD protection on sockets etc., and in some cases have insisted on this requirement on the private sector too, but agreed this depends on the individual LA, and it would be nice to have some consistency.

Some private landlord's insurance companies are also insisting on EICR's and RCD protection too, but again this is dependent on individual companies.

Part Pee, is bad enough (for many reasons), do we really want more 'ill thought out legislation' ?
Iam not disagreeing with you btw, but until the powers that be are all singing from the same hymn sheet, and/or get some common sense, I fear little will change, it is not that the concepts are a bad thing per se, it is just once the Government get involved, you just know they will balls it up, or balls up the implementation of it, which usually results in the legitimate trader being penalised, or have additional costs and paperwork heaped on us while the 'rogue element' will just carry on regardless.

I fully agree with everything you have said.

Again same problem consistency! always the same problem!
You mention that some insurers ask for RCD and EICRs but I am yet to find one. They all said to me that they cant justify it until the law changes!

ITs the same problem - passing the buck!

Don't forget that the BGB is not a legal document however if we dont follow it the bodies we work under wont stand behind us (not saying they would anyway), the insurance company would not cover us if something went wrong, and the courts will refure to it when they prosecute us.

As you and everyone keeps saying who is going to police it, what about the rogues.
Don't get me wrong I would rather a rogue install a RCD and hash something up (the RCD will not stay active) than the rouge not install one and hash the same thing up.
Don't forget without a RCD we are only relaying on that circuit drawing more current than the fuse is rated for for it to blow.

Think about it:

average human body = 1500 ohms (for this example)
Voltage = 230v

Ohms Law!
Current draw: 153mA - DEAD (100mA at 50Hz (230v) will kill an adult)

This would not trip any MCB or fuse - however it would trip a 30mA RCD within 40ms - saving the persons life!

 

[Spazz]

Dont get me wrong I fully agree with what everyone has said!

If I was doing this on my own then I would not stand a chance!
But as I have the MP, and AM on my side as well as the ESC I stand a better chance - and as long as there is a chance of saving these 267 lives (or even 1 of them per year) Im going to keep going.

If the AM and MP give up then I will have to really rethink the whole situation - but at the moment they see what I am getting at and the principal behind it

 

[ian.goddard57]

I totally agree with this. Definitely save lives. Tried to get in on face book but I cant log in with no facebook account. Not much of a techno whiz.

 

[Spazz]

create a facebook account - lol

 

[spark 68]

The RCD question is not in dispute, I agree they save lives.

I did some contract work for a LA, and they insisted that all sockets had to be RCD protected, and earthing and bonding brought up to scratch, although they stopped short of a full blown (pardon the pun) 17th ed upgrade, as the housing stock was due a full rewire and modernisation a year or two down the line.
This is what I meant about over and above BS7671, as technically they did not have to (the regs not applying retrospectively).

In one area, they (the council) ordered all private landlords to get a PIR (as it was then) done and again sockets to be RCD'd, bonding and earthing up to scratch within a six month timeframe, or they (the council) would carry out (sub-contract) the PIR at a cost of £500, and then force them to make good at additional cost to the landlord.

Iam not sure what legal stick they used to beat the landlords with (maybe withdrawing housing benefits ?), but this was just in one area.
I should point out this was a council regeneration (run down) area, ear-marked for improvement and threats of compulsory purchase on long standing derelict/empty properties etc., so there is some legislation already there, it would appear.

Also I did some work for a letting agent, much the same story as above, and they said it was down to their insurance broker, (maybe a higher premium if not done ?).

This may be the key here, insurance companies.

As I say, I was not privvy to what was threatened, or what was used to 'persuade' these landlords (both social and private) to carry out this work, but as you say they did not do this off of their own back.

My only concern stated in my previous post, is badly thought out/implemented 'knee jerk' policies, which add more red-tape and hoops to jump through for the legitimate traders (usually at our cost), while the unregulated cowboys will still undercut us, SNAFU.

Spark 68: it is not that the concepts are a bad thing per se, it is just once the Government get involved, you just know they will balls it up, or balls up the implementation of it, which usually results in the legitimate trader being penalised, or have additional costs and paperwork heaped on us while the 'rogue element' will just carry on regardless.

 

[Dave 85]

How many landlords actually do this?


Fully agree - this is what making it law will force them to do it


This is recommended not law - This is what ESC are trying to do, and what will come part of the RCD becoming law as well


10 years for a rented property - they are still domestic (as far as NAPIT are concerned) - 5 years for commercial


Insurance companies will require it or they wont cover them - same with agents
We have backing from agents and insurance companies saying if it is law they can request these as a minimum - no insurance no rental
Yes we will still get rental properties with no insurance but these are far between


All we are looking for is to save people's lives nothing more!
If we save 1 life then is it not worth it?

Although I rather agree that mandatory RCD's in rented properties would be no bad thing, it is after all a one off expense that shouldnt damage landords wallets too badly, I disagree about annual inspections. Absolute waste of time and money IMO. Why in the name of god would a tenant go and disconnect an earth bond that clearly states SAFETY ELECTRICAL CONNECTION DO NOT REMOVE on it, just because 'they dont know what it does'. Nonsense, wouldn't happen.

The chances of a small house with say six low loaded circuits and complete RCD protection suddenly becoming fatally dangerous every year are virtually none.

And your last statement: If we save 1 life then is it not worth it?
To be frank I'm afraid its this kind of attitude that has helped get the UK economy in the sorry state that its in.
The idea that to save one (probably not too bright) person in 60 million from accidental death ever, is worth literaly infinite amounts of money is just ludicrous. Personally i'd rather live in a country where my chances of accidental death are slightly higher but we still have an economy worth a damn. This is one of the many reasons the UK cant manufacture anything anymore, its just not cost effective with all the ridiculous H&S.

Evolution got us where we are today. Fatal accidents are what sorts the wheat from the chaff, why reverse it?

 

[Spazz]

Hi all, I have been off for the last 2 days due to work - Dave glad you agree with me on the RCD point.

With the comment of EICRs annually this is not me fighting this - this is the ESC!

When you say you doubt that a tenant is going to disconnect the earth cable when it is clearly marked SAFETY ELECTRICAL CONNECTION DO NOT REMOVE - dont over estimate these tenants!

I did an EICR on a property that I did a new CU change on only 2 weeks ago and the bloody tenant had gone off and disconnected the earth bonding off the gas supply where it came into the house. I only put a new bonding clamp on when I did the CU change 2 weeks ago as the clamp was not in the best condition and didn't have any labels on!

Tenants excuse was I didn't like the look of the label


its like I went to a property the other month on an emergency call out as the electric went off - opened the CU (old solid wire fuses) and the unit had caught fire - pulled out the fuse to fine that someone had bridged the shower fuse with 6mm cable as they ran out of 32A fuse cable - PRAT!!

So saying that these tenants are not going to do stupid thing is a laugh!

When I said if we save 1 life is it not worth it? - I was actually meaning that ain't 1 life worth saving - yes in theory we would be aiming to save at least half of the people killed per year!
Sorry if we save 1 life I personally think we are gaining something! Yes we need to work harder to save the others but come one!

You say the UK economy in the sorry state that its in!

Sorry the UK economy is in this state because noone is spending money and the government we have in place dont know the difference between the AR$E and the Head and not mentioning the Press - just look at the last so called fuel strike we where going to have! The pumps ran dry because every hour the bloody press where saying that this one was going to be worse then that last! same as the recession! We are not in as bad as they say! If they shut up about it for few days then maybe this country could recover with the rich spending money and then maybe the small businesses could actually start trading again instead of closing down!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

In the year before the introduction of Part P, there were ten fatalities due to home accidents in Great Britain caused by use or misuse of electrical equipment and electrical installations.
You are stating that some two years after the introduction of Part P the number has increased by more than 2000%.
I think either your figures are incorrect, or you have tipped your lance at the wrong windmill.

 

[i=p/u]

have to say i know it as an average of 10 persons per year..

but contact the sun and get them to throw your story up . them journalists are good at blabbering something out... but if this helps the working man il be impressed ....

'its the world that we live in.......... thats me singling that

 

[oldtimer]

In the year before the introduction of Part P, there were ten fatalities due to home accidents in Great Britain caused by use or misuse of electrical equipment and electrical installations.
You are stating that some two years after the introduction of Part P the number has increased by more than 2000%.
I think either your figures are incorrect, or you have tipped your lance at the wrong windmill.

Spinlondondon I dont agree or disagree here but what i have noticed over the past 2 years is that our eastern european cousins who come over to work and stay are bringing their habits with them I had to fo in to a house after them and they fixed the bathroom lights for the landlord but some of them stopped working plus the new tenant thought he got a tingle from one of the MR16 casing so when I investigated they had removed all 6 trnsformers connect the cable straight into the chock block then got GU10 lamps and twisted the cable around the studs.

Now they think they are being clever but as we all know that is not the case

 

[Guitarist]

Have to agree regarding the press.... People are being told every day how badly off we all are, and many wealthy people are believing it, regardless of what they have in their accounts.

 

[Dave 85]

Hi all, I have been off for the last 2 days due to work - Dave glad you agree with me on the RCD point.

With the comment of EICRs annually this is not me fighting this - this is the ESC!

When you say you doubt that a tenant is going to disconnect the earth cable when it is clearly marked SAFETY ELECTRICAL CONNECTION DO NOT REMOVE - dont over estimate these tenants!

I did an EICR on a property that I did a new CU change on only 2 weeks ago and the bloody tenant had gone off and disconnected the earth bonding off the gas supply where it came into the house. I only put a new bonding clamp on when I did the CU change 2 weeks ago as the clamp was not in the best condition and didn't have any labels on!

Tenants excuse was I didn't like the look of the label


its like I went to a property the other month on an emergency call out as the electric went off - opened the CU (old solid wire fuses) and the unit had caught fire - pulled out the fuse to fine that someone had bridged the shower fuse with 6mm cable as they ran out of 32A fuse cable - PRAT!!

So saying that these tenants are not going to do stupid thing is a laugh!

When I said if we save 1 life is it not worth it? - I was actually meaning that ain't 1 life worth saving - yes in theory we would be aiming to save at least half of the people killed per year!
Sorry if we save 1 life I personally think we are gaining something! Yes we need to work harder to save the others but come one!

You say the UK economy in the sorry state that its in!

Sorry the UK economy is in this state because noone is spending money and the government we have in place dont know the difference between the AR$E and the Head and not mentioning the Press - just look at the last so called fuel strike we where going to have! The pumps ran dry because every hour the bloody press where saying that this one was going to be worse then that last! same as the recession! We are not in as bad as they say! If they shut up about it for few days then maybe this country could recover with the rich spending money and then maybe the small businesses could actually start trading again instead of closing down!

Im sorry, but if you are suggesting that the government we have in place is doing a worse job than the previous one, I am going to struggle to take anything you say seriously.

 

[Spazz]

Dave I didnt say that

The government in general - this one, the last one, etc.

Yes fair enough this government is new and we will have to watch where they go with changes!

 

[briand]

I qualified as an electrician when I took early retirement to become a full-time private landlord so I could correct any of my own electrical problems. Out of the 9 properties I own 3 are 16th edition 7671 compliant, and a further 4 have been rewired to 17th ed. I only have 2 to update - both have 3036 rewirables, and a single power and lighting circuit, so both will need a full rewire. I agree with the neccessity for RCD protection, but neither of my tenants will want the disruption of a full rewire! As both are long term tenants I'd love someone to advise me how to persuade them that its in their best interests!!

 

[Spazz]

This is one of the problems faced daily by all landlords!

Yes this is a different situation to most as these require a full rewire.
Yes they will have to be found alternative accommodation during this time, which brings its own problems.

Most situations a RCD can be inserted into the existing 16th Edition CU, or a change of CU.

Both are less than a days work if all goes well - yes sometimes things happen - especially in rented properties.

Dont get me wrong this wont be an overnight change - this will be something that will have to come in over 1-2 years allowing every landlord (like yourself) to arrange a suitable time which is the most suitable for their tenants.

I have family in the same situation, between my grandfather, my uncles and ants, there are over 35 properties which all will need RCDs adding to them, and most of these have not been done for the very reason mentioned above!

I fully understand, but we have to put safety before anything else.

 

[oldtimer]

briand if you can do it I would replace the 3036 boards with a duel RCD board and yes you would like to rewire but at the same time your are making the installation 100 times safer

 

[vernam616]

As both are long term tenants I'd love someone to advise me how to persuade them that its in their best interests!!

Erm... why not try " im the landlord and im rewiring this property to improve your safety, date when rewired is ??/??/???? thanks"

 

[Brown969]

Great idea. More safety and more enforcement please!!