Could a relay switch be causing the havoc in my home?

[Tardigrade]

Hi guys,

Don't know if I picked the wrong builder, products, am desperately unlucky or its the relay switch...all help much appreciated!

Background facts
• Back to bricks refurb of duplex flat, all new wiring etc.
• Upstairs en suite utilises same in line fan as existing bathroom. Builder therefore put in a metal box in my airing cupboard he referred to as a relay switch, with the function of "if either bathroom's lights are on, turn fan on".
• I have a ton of ceiling lights linked to dimmer switches as I'm visually impaired.
• I had cable runs installed for virgin and tv aerial under the flooring

Symptoms
• My 2gbit powerline adapters are providing 60mbit from downstairs to upstairs, and 100mbit downstairs only. Swapping the adapters around, I agree with TP Link technical support that this is not a faulty set of adapters but rather there must be "electrical interference" in my house. What I don't know if it is simply "normal" to accept the "distance" of going upstairs leads to this loss of 95% performance typically; or if this is a sign of terrible wiring; or if it is the relay switch dominating upstairs.

• Around 5 of my 14 V-Pro dimmer switches have failed. Some in days, one took a month. Many but not all failures upstairs (ie fairly close to relay switch, which is central placement).

• Around 15 of 30 odd dimmable lights from LEDHut have failed. I think this one is more likely to be product quality - amazonbasics replacements seem to be holding up. Also, the best survivors are actually closest to the switch.

• Engineers have determined both the virgin cable and tv aerial cable are suffering from a ton of "noise". They attributed this to damaged cables in the under floor area- they didn't know of the existence of the switch. There are two virgin cables - the working one without noise (tv) doesn't get as close to the relay as the "broken" one (broadband).

• I'm about to get Virgin to drill another hole in my house, and ruin the decorating somewhat, to run another cable to replace the "broken" one. My fear now is they'll do all that work only to find the cables are "still broken" - and that the issue is actually one of noise caused by the relay switch.

Thoughts?!

Thanks!

 

[Pete999]

Hi guys,

Don't know if I picked the wrong builder, products, am desperately unlucky or its the relay switch...all help much appreciated!

Background facts
• Back to bricks refurb of duplex flat, all new wiring etc.
• Upstairs en suite utilises same in line fan as existing bathroom. Builder therefore put in a metal box in my airing cupboard he referred to as a relay switch, with the function of "if either bathroom's lights are on, turn fan on".
• I have a ton of ceiling lights linked to dimmer switches as I'm visually impaired.
• I had cable runs installed for virgin and tv aerial under the flooring

Symptoms
• My 2gbit powerline adapters are providing 60mbit from downstairs to upstairs, and 100mbit downstairs only. Swapping the adapters around, I agree with TP Link technical support that this is not a faulty set of adapters but rather there must be "electrical interference" in my house. What I don't know if it is simply "normal" to accept the "distance" of going upstairs leads to this loss of 95% performance typically; or if this is a sign of terrible wiring; or if it is the relay switch dominating upstairs.

• Around 5 of my 14 V-Pro dimmer switches have failed. Some in days, one took a month. Many but not all failures upstairs (ie fairly close to relay switch, which is central placement).

• Around 15 of 30 odd dimmable lights from LEDHut have failed. I think this one is more likely to be product quality - amazonbasics replacements seem to be holding up. Also, the best survivors are actually closest to the switch.

• Engineers have determined both the virgin cable and tv aerial cable are suffering from a ton of "noise". They attributed this to damaged cables in the under floor area- they didn't know of the existence of the switch. There are two virgin cables - the working one without noise (tv) doesn't get as close to the relay as the "broken" one (broadband).

• I'm about to get Virgin to drill another hole in my house, and ruin the decorating somewhat, to run another cable to replace the "broken" one. My fear now is they'll do all that work only to find the cables are "still broken" - and that the issue is actually one of noise caused by the relay switch.

Thoughts?!

Thanks!

Think the "Wrong builder" explains all the havoc in your Gaff Tardigrade Plenty of Builders will tell you Electrics are easy, a few cable here and there bung in some fancy relays etc, you should have employed a bona fide Electrician to work with the builder, not the other way around.

 

[Tardigrade]

Thanks, but care to expand on what the actual issue might be? Obviously it's too late to change what is already done (and was/am severely budget & experience constrained, so didn't have the luxury of managing separate trades in a complex build).

 

[Pete999]

Thanks, but care to expand on what the actual issue might be? Obviously it's too late to change what is already done (and was/am severely budget & experience constrained, so didn't have the luxury of managing separate trades in a complex build).

It's not an easy question to answer Mate, but you will see many Builders quoting for work of all sizes, and do the work themselves, sometimes this is easy and works well, but your job sounds complex, and if the builder has attempted this work without an experienced Electrician in tow, then all sorts of things could go astray. Very difficult to assess the problem from afar, maybe a Forum Member Local to you would offer to take a look, too far for me I'm afraid, but someone may offer, have you paid the Builder in full yet? Sorry I can't give you any more advice, if nobody offers hel, then imoyou will nee to chase the Builder for remedial repairs, good luck.

 

[Tardigrade]

Thanks - appreciate hard to diagnose over forum. Yes builder paid - and if I can't identify a fault, I can't get him to take responsibility or fix it. He can and has, for example, blamed faulty lightbulbs/dimmer switches are at fault. He might even be right. And "re do my wiring as there is interference from somewhere" isn't going to fly (and would somewhat ruin the house!).

Is it plausible a relay switch can completely 'screw' with wiring in this way? Like, anything within a 3m radius? If so, can anything be done?

Edited - I have altered your post, please mind your P and Q's (and F's)... this is a public forum, thankyou!

Re' Darkwood.

 

[Darkwood]

I would agree with Pete, it is a hard call, I also agree that getting a competent person in just to assess the electrical work done by the builder maybe from a visual aspect to decide if it throws up any concerns for a deeper intrusive approach, it will be hard to hold a good strong position against a builder who seems to be undertaking work he shouldn't be doing if you have no evidence to back your corner up. Did you get any Electrical Certification for the work done?

 

[Midwest]

This sounds on the face of it quite an annoying & perhaps complicated situation. Some dimmer switch manufacturers for example make lots of allegations that some dimmer switches can cause all sorts of problems.

I myself had issues using powerline adaptors, causing loss of internet connection.

Think you first need to highlight the symptoms of your problems, before spending money on services or products, in a systematic way.

 

[Tardigrade]

Yeah - got a certificate, (and building control sign off etc) - but the guy that signed it off had a relationship with the builder so whilst he was definitely doing stuff with his some meter and the consumer unit etc, I've no idea if he'd note or spot something more subtle.

 

[Midwest]

Yeah - got a certificate, (and building control sign off etc) - but the guy that signed it off had a relationship with the builder so whilst he was definitely doing stuff with his some meter and the consumer unit etc, I've no idea if he'd note or spot something more subtle.

You can probably post a pic now of this 'metal box'?

 

[Tardigrade]

...and yeah, when I have some more cash think I'm going to have to get someone in for an opinion with a list of issues. That'll be after Virgin trash my house...!

Thanks all.

 

[Midwest]

The picture will cost nothing.

 

[Wilko]

Hi - a few thoughts, hopefully helpful .
Dimmers and leds can be problematic and it's perhaps best to use a brand led and their recommended dimmer. Not what you want to hear with tons of stuff recently installed and I may be just a worrier, sorry. The relay box sounds like it's taking in the switched L from the 2 bathrooms and providing an L to the fan using perhaps 2 relays. Unless you can hear it chattering it shouldn't be creating interference, I'd have thought. Starting with simple things, I'd confirm the house has solid neutral, earth and bonding.

 

[Marvo]

I'm with Wilko (not in the biblical sense) Start with getting the basics tested by a professional electrician, things like earth impedances, neutral-earth voltage etc.

If the problem was caused by the relay you'd see an increase in your powerline adaptor speeds when the fan is off. Likewise if it was harmonics or noise from your dimmers you'd also see a speed increase when no lights are switched on.

 

[Octopus]

My observations:

Powerline adaptors NEVER run at the advertised speeds - RCD's do affect their performance - note, manufacturers deny this is the case but I know this is fact

V-Pro dimmers lately have been poorer than their earlier models

Can't comment on the LEDhut products - never use them

Who specified the downlights and dimmers?

Did the spark who tested and certificated - did he do the installation work?

LEDs are known to cause "noise" and interference

If the Virgin and aerial cables are close and running parallel to mains cables - this could be an issue

 

[davesparks]

Do all of the interference problems disappear when the lights associated with the relay are switched off?
If they don’t then I’d say it’s not the relay.

 

[Midwest]

This sounds on the face of it quite an annoying & perhaps complicated situation. Some dimmer switch manufacturers for example make lots of allegations that some dimmer switches can cause all sorts of problems.

I myself had issues using powerline adaptors, causing loss of internet connection.

Think you first need to highlight the symptoms of your problems, before spending money on services or products, in a systematic way.

Still think my post beat all you lot first

 

[shaun1]

As others have said, the relay seems unlikely to be the problem, but it would be very easy to remove it and see if anything improves.

Power line adapters work best on the same circuit, and even then you are unlikely to get the full speed. Have you tried them on sockets in the same room.

TV arial and particullaly the virgin cables need to be properly terminated to function well. If they are properly terminated they should reject a lot of interference so I would suspect some poor terminations/splitting under the floor somewhere.

Dimming mains LED bulbs is often problematic, so as others have said it's best to stick to combinations of bulbs and dimmers that have been recomended by manufacturers or by someone with experience of fitting many.

 

[shaun1]

Thinking about it, the builder/his electrician should really have recomended installing cat 5 cable to the points you need it when carrying out the rest of the work.

Before letting virgin media loose with the drill it may be worth getting someone to investigate the coax cables, the vm instalalers may well have stuck a tester on the end, saw a bad signal and condemmed it. Did they look at the terminations of the cable/check it was the correct spec?

 

[Tardigrade]

Possibly-unfairly-accused-relay attached.

You guys inspired me to up the testing. My findings and responses to your thoughts:
1) Turning off all lights and bathroom fans (does this necessarily turn of the relay though?) has zero effect on powerline.
2) Oh my god. Powerline is extremely sensitive to socket placement. The 60mbit was by fluke the best plug to plug match. On the same double plug, one gives 60mbit the other doesn't function at all. I have a ton of sockets and tried about 10 permutations and nothing beat 60 mbit. Some 40, many, total duds. What does this suggest?
3) An independent FM aerial guy did establish that all the aerials had been very badly "attached" to the socket. He fixed this, leading to massive improvement, but still said there was a ton of noise and its still pretty rubbish signal. So he thought cables were damaged. FM and Virgin in the same trench, although there is more of the former round the house than the latter.

Thanks!

 

[Tardigrade]

Oh sorry for some reason can't upload image