Cut-throat Competition: The Race To The Bottom

[Pete999]

It's not the "Sparkychicks" of the world I was referring to, there are many on this Forum who have had to take this route, who are becoming, or have become good Sparks, I personally don't like the short course route, but then I'm a Mature Electrician as someone called me a while back, and find the short courses alien. I should have made my comments clearer, no, I was aiming my ire to the Jack the Lad type who post a 1 liner "how do I do this or that, thanks" not the Guys and Gals who have proven themselves worthy of the title Electrician, if you have ever checked the information on some of the profiles perhaps you will understand my concerns, an example: what electrical qualifications do you hold :Enough, All of them, are two examples that come to mind.

It's not the "Sparkychicks" of the world I was referring to, there are many on this Forum who have had to take this route, who are becoming, or have become good Sparks, I personally don't like the short course route, but then I'm a Mature Electrician as someone called me a while back, and find the short courses alien. I should have made my comments clearer, no, I was aiming my ire to the Jack the Lad type who post a 1 liner "how do I do this or that, thanks" not the Guys and Gals who have proven themselves worthy of the title Electrician, if you have ever checked the information on some of the profiles perhaps you will understand my concerns, an example: what electrical qualifications do you hold :Enough, All of them, are two examples that come to mind.

Crikey DelBoyBully your old tag is a bit od isn't it? cushty Rodders, Mon Ami, mon due.

 

[Leesparkykent]

It is indeed Jim. And like your good self, I too am bald.

Me too, I'm afraid. I'm extremely annoyed and concerned about what I've witnessed over the years and am now actively involved in trying to get the Scottish Government do something about it. Thankfully, the ball is now rolling at long last and momentum will now surely increase.

http://www.select.org.uk/selects-campaign-recognition-professional-electricians-raised-holyrood

The sooner those who are incompetent and unqualified are identified and prohibited from working on electrical installations the better.

These underhand practices defeat the purpose of an EICR entirely. I've just started doing EICRs for a Glasgow-based agency who got rid of their previous contractors for this very reason.

That's because the agent couldn't care less about the quality of the report. All they're interested in is getting the report done as cheaply as possible and seeing the word 'Satisfactory' at the bottom of page 1.

I've done over 100 jobs that came via My Builder, but have only done one through the site since last September. I got fed-up of being continually undercut by young boys out to make a name for themselves. The average age of these guys must be around 20. It would appear that they come out of school, go to college for 3 years then go straight to My Builder and Rated People. Indeed, every time I log-on there are inevitably more fresh-faced boys using the site, crowding-out an already overcrowded market.

I've had to compete in my own locality in Glasgow with guys traveling from places like Stirling, Dundee and Ayr. Seriously. When EICRs, smoke alarm installations and rewires come up, they all gather like flies round the proverbial turd undercutting one another right, left and centre. When a rewire job appears so too do the "we've done thousands of house rewires in 10 years and we'll do your house in a day" rewiring "specialists". I'm glad that I don't have to rely on My Builder for work.

I won't budge on my prices for EICRs. I have a fixed-price tariff depending on the size and age of the property which is non-negotiable. The customer either accepts my price or I walk.

That's my policy too. The problem though, is that the bottom-feeders also want a slice of the action for the lucrative jobs such as rewires and are active in that sector of the domestic market too.

I'm struggling to get anywhere near those rates at the moment. That's how bad things are up in Glasgow right now. The city is absolutely hoaching with young boys working for pocket-money and they've all but killed the domestic market stone-dead. Thanks to these clowns, some landlords now expect to have an EICR done for £40, two interlinked smoke alarms and one interlinked heat alarm installed for £100, sockets installed for £25, and houses rewired for £1500. These young fools have created unrealistic customer expectations and distorted the market by way of their cut-throat competition. But ultimately, it is their own throats that are being cut because sooner or later their foolishness will catch-up with them and their businesses will suffer accordingly.

I'm pleased to hear that. I think I'll start operating in your neck of the woods.

Is he still knocking about? I thought he went under....

 

[davesparks]

I DO carry out EICR'S as a loss leader (and do test them to a good standard). I get around 95% of the remedials and that's where I make my money.

So do you happily take a loss when the EICR is satisfactory or do you always find enough remedial work to make up the loss?

 

[baldelectrician]

So do you happily take a loss when the EICR is satisfactory or do you always find enough remedial work to make up the loss?

Yep
I can count on one hand the EICR's that pass first time
If they are a pass there is almost always the smoke and heat alarms

 

[DC-backfrom the past]

I get a few jobs from landlords and I don't lower prices to get jobs. There is a lot of competition in the area I cover, however what i find is that keeping in touch and up dating the customer is important. IE if you are going to be late, then a phone call goes a long way.
tidying up your mess or at least offering to.!
I also show my qualification and insurance documents when quoting for a job.
This has been met with a very positive response.
In fact customers state they haven't had that before and weren't sure how to check tradesman's qualifications.
Whilst Select are pushing for their own agenda through parliament. I don't agree that I need to join a membership scheme to get work.
Recently I've had jobs to look at and sort work that others (who are members of these schemes )have signed off and left in an unsatisfactory or unsafe state. (my work has then tested and been passed by others )
Scottish Gov brought in standards for landlords for eicrs... I have had to explain to several landlords that their is no legal requirement for me to be a member of these schemes to complete pat or eicrs etc.
I understand the need for standards.
However my understanding is that all you need a supervisor to be tested by select or nicec, that allows your company to be a member. a
Also you can't join unless you are a sjib approved electrician. as I'm self employed i don't have the opportunity to supervise others to get this grade.

Does this mean I will have to go and get employed by a company to get this grading - to become self-employed in the future again ?

 

[JK-Electrical]

I get a few jobs from landlords and I don't lower prices to get jobs.

Although I do EICRs for landlords directly, most of the EICRs I do are done via letting agents. More often than not, surprise is expressed by landlords when they discover that the lowest price I am prepared to do an EICR for is £100. A lot of them are under the impression that the "standard" price for an EICR is between £40-£60. I remind them that they will always get what they pay for and walk away if they attempt to reduce the price as I feel that my prices are reasonable and since I don't need to lower them in order to secure work, I refuse to haggle.

There is a lot of competition in the area I cover, however what i find is that keeping in touch and up dating the customer is important. IE if you are going to be late, then a phone call goes a long way. tidying up your mess or at least offering to.!

Aye, Glasgow is indeed a crowded marketplace. I'm sure that you'll be aware that there are people up here offering to do EICRs for as low as £40. Quite how anyone can do an EICR properly for that kind of money beats me. Either they are happy to work for £10 an hour, or they aren't doing the job properly. On the basis of the evidence that I have seen to date, I know which of the two scenarios is the most likely. I read an EICR a fortnight ago wherein varied trip times were listed for each circuit on a 10-way split-load board which was configured to provide RCD protection for only three circuits. Go figure!

Extending the common courtesy of letting customers know if you're running late and offering to clean-up behind yourself when you've completed the job should be second-nature and it is good to hear that you are a courteous electrician. As you say, a little respect goes a long way.

I also show my qualification and insurance documents when quoting for a job. This has been met with a very positive response. In fact customers state they haven't had that before and weren't sure how to check tradesman's qualifications.

The easiest way for a customer to check an electrician's qualifications is to ask to see his SJIB card. A photograph of the electrician will be embossed on the front of the card along with his NI number, and his qualifications will be printed on the back.

Whilst Select are pushing for their own agenda through parliament. I don't agree that I need to join a membership scheme to get work.

SELECT have been actively campaigning for several years to persuade the Scottish Government to give professional recognition to Scottish electricians and acknowledge the training and experience which bona fide qualified electricians are required to possess. I fully support the campaign. There are far too many unqualified and under-qualified people carrying-out electrical work in Scotland and something needs to be done about it. These charlatans need to be identified and driven-out of the trade for good. If this means that every electrician needs to become registered and the introduction of a law making it a criminal offence to carry-out electrical work if not registered, then so be it. Whatever it takes.

Recently I've had jobs to look at and sort work that others (who are members of these schemes )have signed off and left in an unsatisfactory or unsafe state. (my work has then tested and been passed by others )

Perhaps you might consider reporting such incidences to SELECT or NICEIC.

Scottish Gov brought in standards for landlords for eicrs... I have had to explain to several landlords that their is no legal requirement for me to be a member of these schemes to complete pat or eicrs etc. I understand the need for standards.

Although membership of SELECT and/or NICEIC is not a pre-requisite for electricians carrying-out EICRs in Scotland, non-members should be able to satisfy all ten requirements as outlined on page 13 of Annex A of the Scottish Government publication Electrical Installations And Appliances In Private Rented Properties.

Documentary evidence of competence to carry out an Electrical Installation Condition Report for the purposes of assessing the safety of electrical installations, fittings and fixtures in private rented property should be provided to the landlord/letting agent along with a signed and dated copy of the checklist which should also include the name and the trading name of the electrician carrying-out the EICR. The point of this exercise is that since the landlord is ultimately legally responsibility for ensuring electrical safety in any property that they let, they must priorly satisfy themselves that whoever they hire to carry-out EICRs on their behalf has the necessary skills, knowledge and qualifications to do so.

However my understanding is that all you need a supervisor to be tested by select or nicec, that allows your company to be a member. Also you can't join unless you are a sjib approved electrician. as I'm self employed i don't have the opportunity to supervise others to get this grade. Does this mean I will have to go and get employed by a company to get this grading - to become self-employed in the future again ?

As I've never applied for NICEIC membership, and never will, I don't know what the entry requirements are for electricians based in Scotland who wish to join. However, as a SELECT member, I can confirm that in order to be considered for membership you don't necessarily have to be a qualified supervisor, but you would, however, need to be an SJIB approved electrician and have been trading for at least six months.

 

[DC-backfrom the past]

JK thanks for your reply.

That's madness £40 for EICR ...how is that cost effective ....?
When I'm asked to reduce my prices
i say something along the lines
do you ask the mechanic to mot and service your car for £60? probably not so please don't ask me to service and MOT your electrical system on the cheap.
I know the PAT market is also exploited, I don't charge per item. I charge an hourly rate .probably explains why I don't get much in the way of that work. However I've found that when I provide a list of items tested with a relevant certificate and don't sticky label all their equipment (unless its a fail) ..I get offered other and /or repeat work.

I'm aware that the previous jobs could be reported however when I get the EICR the Electrical company details are redacted by the council . must be a data protection thing. I tell the landlord they should re-approach the company they employed or report them.

Re joining Select or others, I haven't been graded as an approved electrician, as its years since having a SJIB card probably because I never needed one.
I think I'm stuck in a well where that's concerned, I may have the knowledge and certification etc,but because I'm a sole trader, I don't have a supervisor to verify my work etc.

I still do my cyber and business resilience work and supplement my income with electrical work.
My hours are limited around picking up and dropping of my kids at school as well.

hope you are kept busy and don't let them grind you down. People don't always want the cheapest they want the job done correctly

 

[JK-Electrical]

JK thanks for your reply.

You're welcome DC.

That's madness £40 for EICR ...how is that cost effective ....?

It is indeed, but there is method to this madness. One the one hand, some of those who offer these crazy prices no doubt do so as a 'loss leader' in the hope that they will cop for any remedial work that arises as they will then be able to make a tidy profit overall even if it means converting what should be a C3 code to a C2 or even a C1.

On the other hand, there are unscrupulous 'electricians' doing EICRs at this insane price who just don't bother doing the necessary level of inspection and testing. The reports that these tricksters issue tend to have a predominance of five letters L, I, M, N, and A. Not that landlords or letting agents care. All they want to see is the word Satisfactory appear on page 2 of the "landlord's electrical safety certificate".

When I'm asked to reduce my prices i say something along the lines do you ask the mechanic to mot and service your car for £60? probably not so please don't ask me to service and MOT your electrical system on the cheap.

That would be my line too. Indeed, one gentlemen of Pakistani origin once enquired of me if I could match a quotation of £50 that some joker had given him to carry-out an EICR on a three-bedroom flat in the west-end of Glasgow. I told him that when the day comes where I am able to come to his restaurant and order chicken pakora for 50 pence, a king prawn madras with mushroom rice and garlic naan for £2.50, and a pint of heavy for 75 pence, that would be the day when I do an EICR on his three-bedroom flat for £50. He hung-up on me and I haven't heard from him since.

If there's one thing that seriously ----es me off big-time, it's people who live in houses that cost seven-figures who own a portfolio of properties that each cost six-figure sums, who drive top-of-the-range cars that cost five-figure sums, and whose homes are adorned with Italian leather sofas that cost four-figure sums moaning about my three-figure fee for an EICR. Such greedy bastards can go forth and multiply. I don't want their custom.

I know the PAT market is also exploited, I don't charge per item.

Me neither. The prices that I charge for an EICR in a private letting includes all portable appliance testing as this is usually never more than three or four items.

I charge an hourly rate .probably explains why I don't get much in the way of that work.

I charge an hourly rate for EICRs too. It usually takes me anywhere between 3-6 hours to do an EICR and type-up the report depending on the size and type of property and the condition of the installation. My fees reflect the time involved which is charged on an hourly basis, with there being a £100 minimum charge. While this might be considered 'expensive' in the present marketplace in Glasgow, I'm sure some of our colleagues south of the border would consider my prices inexpensive.

However I've found that when I provide a list of items tested with a relevant certificate and don't sticky label all their equipment (unless its a fail) ..I get offered other and /or repeat work.

In order to comply with the relevant legislation affecting electrical safety in privately let properties in Scotland, it is a requirement that a Portable Appliance Test Certificate be issued in conjunction with an EICR. I would be very surprised indeed if a letting agent didn't notice that a valid PA test certificate wasn't submitted along with an EICR.

I'm aware that the previous jobs could be reported however when I get the EICR the Electrical company details are redacted by the council. must be a data protection thing. I tell the landlord they should re-approach the company they employed or report them.

That is precisely what I would do in the same circumstances.

Re joining Select or others, I haven't been graded as an approved electrician, as its years since having a SJIB card probably because I never needed one.

That was pretty much my situation too. I didn't bother to renew my original JIB grade card and let it lapse. However, when I reapplied for my grading card I had to first sit the ECS exam, which is so easy you would have to be incredibly stupid to fail. Upon receiving my SJIB card I was surprised to discover that I had been downgraded from Approved Electrician to Electrician, and to be regraded back up I then had to do the Inspection and Testing course and take the exam. It was at this point where I decided to become a probationary member of SELECT as this would then entitle me to a generous reduction in the cost of the course (£415 plus VAT for non-members, £250 plus VAT for members). SELECT's probationary member scheme gives you a year to get your qualifications up-to-date, and once you're back up to speed you can then reapply to the SJIB to be upgraded to an Approved Electrician. You can then apply to become a full member of SELECT once you've been regraded.

I think I'm stuck in a well where that's concerned, I may have the knowledge and certification etc,but because I'm a sole trader, I don't have a supervisor to verify my work etc. I still do my cyber and business resilience work and supplement my income with electrical work. My hours are limited around picking up and dropping of my kids at school as well

You're not stuck at all DC! Should you ever decide to apply for SELECT membership, you would be required to nominate three jobs that you have carried-out in the last year upon which your competency will be assessed. I'm sure you would pass with flying colours!

hope you are kept busy and don't let them grind you down.

You too bud.

I'm usually kept busy regardless of the fact that I have to compete with boys not long out of college and guys from Stirling, Dundee and Ayr operating in Glasgow. I have a good reputation and get most of my work through recommendations. I assume it's the same with you too.

People don't always want the cheapest they want the job done correctly.

The moral of which is that the guy offering the customer rock-bottom prices is the guy most likely to not do the job properly! You know the type ..... the ones who quote prices over the phone for consumer unit upgrades without first having visited the customer and assessed the installation to determine whether or not the earthing and bonding arrangements are adequate. The ones who don't test the installation prior to the board changeover so to determine whether IR values are within limits, and that there are no existing faults present on the installation. The ones who just hope that an RCD doesn't trip when the installation is re-engerised. The ones who don't provide the customer with an Electrical Installation Certificate for the board upgrade. The ones whose sharp practices are largely responsible for the race to the bottom happening in the first place.

 

[DC-backfrom the past]

Jk got to agree with your points.
I might have a look at SELECT again after your input.
I'm getting enough work to tick over,however some places are just not accepting that I don't need to be a member of one of these schemes to get /do the work properly , funnily enough builders seem to be the most fussy ones.

re the pat testing : its been places that are between EICR testing dates.
Two hadn't been given certificates and just had green labels stuck on items.
customer were asking why I was opening up plugs on heaters etc?
until I showed some damaged plastic in the moulded plug at the fuse holder.
the heater passed the PAT testing via the meter but failed due to the melted plastic obviously.

on checking where the heaters were usually plugged in I noticed the sockets were scorched and brittle .
They (customer) gave me their other branch to check and found the same problems (similar older type heaters) . (yep I tested the socket circuit )
Again by doing the job properly got me more work. I was dearer than the last guy who had charged about £2 an item. although when they saw that things were failing and being inspected properly they were delighted. They realised they had to be safe

I don't mind pat testing every so often but couldn't do it full time lol

haha that's brilliant re the curry and beer prices .. although I bet he got someone to do it for those prices and possibly a free curry .