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Enzo007

Hi Guys, new to this forum and need some advice..

i have purchased a flat that had storage heaters fitted, these were of no use and I am replacing them with new dimplex Monterey panel heaters throughout. The question I have is to do with installation. I would like the central 4 zone controller for ease of use, But their is two options a pilot wire controller or mains borne controller?

I dont understand what the difference is? If I get the pilot wire one do I have to rip up every wall In the flat to wire each panel heater up to the central control unit?? Or with the mains borne one does it send information to the panel heaters without the need of ripping up walls for wiring??

im totally confused by it all and the website is of no use if you have no electrical background!

Does anyone have any experience with the dimplex central controlled system?

Cheers in advance.
 
You are correct for the pilot wire you would need to run a pilot cable from the controller to the heater's connection point for each heater using the pilot wire system, though if they are in the same zone then the wire can be run in series (i.e from one heater to another).

Using the mains borne system you would need to install a receiver unit into each heater and synchronise it with the controller. The system will not work well over different circuits. however it would not require new wiring
 
You are correct for the pilot wire you would need to run a pilot cable from the controller to the heater's connection point for each heater using the pilot wire system, though if they are in the same zone then the wire can be run in series (i.e from one heater to another).

Using the mains borne system you would need to install a receiver unit into each heater and synchronise it with the controller. The system will not work well over different circuits. however it would not require new wiring

Hi Richard thanks for your advice,

so it's quite a big job to install the pilot wire system but worth it in the end to work properly?

I thought you could do that with the Mmains borne system but the man at dimplex said you wouldn't use a central controller which I do want. What is a diffrent circuit?

Also if dimplex specify a 0.75kw heather for a room would it be best to get a 1kw to ensure it works ok, and surely it would not cost more when running the system as it would cut out faster reaching the desired tempature.?

Thanks again.
 
The pilot wire installation would be a reasonably disruptive installation, but not as bad as some.
You should take account of where the heaters are located and place the controller at a point somewhere near the middle of them then the run of pilot cable is as short as possible, there are a more considerations but it become too detailed to explain on a forum.

The mains borne system should work without the need for pilot wires.
a different circuit is where there is a separate circuit breaker of fuse for the appliance, if you have had storage heaters they are likely all on their own individual circuits, but thought he recommendation is to have one circuit the logistics of this are very difficult and the system should be able to work on a normal layout it would be not so sensitive and could miss bits at times.

If the specification for the heater is 0.75kW then that should be sufficient for the conditions that they specify, using a large heater will generally cost slightly more as the level of control will not be so tight and overshoots on temperature will occur, but the difference would be small so a large heater can be installed if desired.
 
Last time I wired these with the central controller , I used 1.5mm 3 core and earth to each heater, which worked well as most of these are in the 0.75 - 1.5 kw range
 
Great thanks, just a bit worried about every wall getting ripped up for wiring the heaters up..

So the mains borne sounds like the best option, but looking at their website it still says they need wired up (twin & earth wire)? But it's all confusing to me so not sure? If I got the mains Bourne central controller and a mains borne receiver cassette for each panel heater I would not need to wire them up to the central controller?

Or does anyone have a better idea or wireless control system?

Thanks again.
 
Sorry if in being slow.. But that sounds as if all the walls need ripped up for the wiring?

So it would be the same amount of disruption as fitting the pilot wire version of the central controller?
 
From the Dimplex website

Mains borne signalling connection

· Mains borne signalling (MBS) uses the standard twin and earth wiring in the domestic supply circuit to carry a modulated signal between each heater. A receiver cassette is required in each slave heater to decode the signal. Unique electronic identity codes in each programmer prevent interference with receivers in different zones / buildings and negate the need for additional mains filtering.
· This system is ideal for use in existing buildings where it is not possible to install an additional hard wired connection between heaters.
MBS Single Zone Configuration
Dimplex panel heater wiring MBS.JPG - EletriciansForums.net
 
Hi Richard thanks for your advice,

so it's quite a big job to install the pilot wire system but worth it in the end to work properly?

I thought you could do that with the Mmains borne system but the man at dimplex said you wouldn't use a central controller which I do want. What is a diffrent circuit?

Also if dimplex specify a 0.75kw heather for a room would it be best to get a 1kw to ensure it works ok, and surely it would not cost more when running the system as it would cut out faster reaching the desired tempature.?

Thanks again.


"Hello Enzo007",


I don`t mean to complicate your decisions - but as Heating Engineer I must advise You that a 0.75kw Electric Panel Heater [2559 BTU`s] would NOT Heat a Room much bigger than a decent sized Bathroom.

Perhaps that size IS for the Bathroom or a Hallway - If so I just wanted to Alert You to avoid any major problems with your Home`s Heating in future - with the details written below:


Although I have brought this to your attention I cannot advise You on the Heat Requirements of your Rooms because I would need a lot of details about your Home`s Construction [Walls, Floors / Roof /Windows etc.] and the sizes of each Room including Ceiling heights- the number of outside walls and Window details etc.

Sorry but it is too time consuming to do as a `Favour` on a Forum.

Also - when I calculate Heat Requirements for a Heating System I will have carried out a Site Survey and noted all of those details - and more.


But - as I mentioned a 0.75kw Heater would NOT Heat any `Habitable Room` [Living Room, Bedroom, Dining Room] that I have ever seen unless it was a very small `Box Room` type Bedroom - OR unless it was in a Building that had the Highest level of Insulation and `Heat Recovery` Ventilation / Air Management that s currently possible.


Whoever is calculating the Heat Requirements for your Home needs to be capable of getting them correct or You will find yourself with a VERY COLD Home in the Winter / Colder Months !


I have often come across `Electric Heating Systems` where almost EVERY Room`s Panel Heater is totally inadequate for the Heat Requirement of the Room - because Dimplex and other Manufacturers of Electric Panel Heaters don`t manufacture High Output Panel Heaters - I assume that this is because for practicality of installation they need to be able to be wired with cable no larger than 2.5 T&E [?] - Rooms often need more than ONE Panel Heater - IF this is practically possible regarding the increased `Demand` on the Electricity supply.

And often the Installer has decided to just fit one 1.5kw Heater in a Room where the Heat Requirement is 2kw or 2.5kw !

I have seen 1kw Electric Panel Heaters fitted in Rooms that required nearly 3kw of Heat !


N.B:

I do realise that there is a Limit on the KW Output / Demand of Electric Panel Heaters that can be added to a Home`s Consumer Unit / Main Fuse demand - this is probably another [the Main ?] reason why People install just ONE Panel Heater in Rooms irrespective of the fact that they need more Heat - ?



Please try to ensure that You get the Heat Requirements -`Heat Loss Calculations` for your Home carried out correctly / by someone who KNOWS what they are doing.

IF Dimplex are supplying YOU directly it would obviously be beneficial to them Sales wise to Calculate the correct Heat Requirements for each Room as You may well find out that you will need closer to 2kw of Heat in some Rooms.

Possibly even more in Large Rooms / or even `Average` sized Rooms with 2 Outside Walls - this would mean installing more than ONE Panel Heater -
IF it is possible regarding the increased `Demand` on your Home`s Electricity Supply - ?


Please also take Professional advice on the positioning of the Panel Heaters - as `Ease of Installation` is often the WORST `Method` of positioning ANY Heater.


I hope that this information is helpful.


I am expecting to be `Admonished` by Members who will point out that despite what I described above it is NOT possible to install the Correct Output Heaters for every Room in most Homes -
because of the increased Demand on the Electricity Supply within the Home - ?


Regards,


Chris
 
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Richard,

I have seen that on the dimplex website but I just don't understand what it means sorry.

Would that hat mean no wiring from each panel heater to the four zone central controller at all? (As it is sent wirelessly?)
Or that you only need to do the standard twin and earth wiring? If that is the case I imagine you would need to damage walls so why wouldn't you just do the pilot wire at the same time?

Hi Chris,

Thanks for all your detailed information, The radiator sizes have been specified from dimplex so hopefully they are ok, it is only a flat the bedrooms are quite small and they did say 2 radiators in the living room. But I am thinking of installing 1kw in bedrooms to be on the safe side. Hopefully that will be ok.

Regards
Laurence
 
You had storage heaters in place that presumably were connected to the power supply by wires, if you transfer this power supply from E7 to 24hr at your fuse box then you use these cables to power the new heaters, without ripping out the old cables or installing new ones, fit a receiver cassette in each heater and place a controller in a suitable place (this may need new cabling depending on location), sycnhronise the heaters to the controller and program the settings you want.
I am afraid if this does not make sense then I cannot manage to explain any further.
 
Richard,

I have seen that on the dimplex website but I just don't understand what it means sorry.

Would that hat mean no wiring from each panel heater to the four zone central controller at all? (As it is sent wirelessly?)
Or that you only need to do the standard twin and earth wiring? If that is the case I imagine you would need to damage walls so why wouldn't you just do the pilot wire at the same time?

Hi Chris,

Thanks for all your detailed information, The radiator sizes have been specified from dimplex so hopefully they are ok, it is only a flat the bedrooms are quite small and they did say 2 radiators in the living room. But I am thinking of installing 1kw in bedrooms to be on the safe side. Hopefully that will be ok.

Regards
Laurence

"Hello again Laurence",

For a Heating Engineer to correctly calculate the Heat Loss requirements of your Flat they would need to know at least:

Exact details about most of the items that I mentioned in my previous message:

The Wall construction and orientation - the Floor construction - the Sizes of the Rooms including Ceiling Heights - how many outside Walls in the Rooms - what type of Windows and any large Window areas - plus Roof construction IF your Flat is on the top floor.

ALL of these things affect the Heat Loss from your Home and the Calculations need to be carried out correctly - IF Dimplex have carried out a detailed Survey of these items at your Flat they may well get the calculations correct - IF NOT they may be `Calculating` using the wrong parameters.

I have nothing against Dimplex - I have some of their portable Thermostatic Fan Heaters [1 - 2 or 3 KW output Thermostatically controlled - plus timer if needed] for Emergency Heating in case I ever have my Home`s Heating System not working - or for `One Off` use to take the chill out of a Room when the Heating System is not required.

They are Excellent Electrical Appliances I would not buy any other Electric Heater.

I know them to be a `World Renowned` Electric Heating Company - You should be able to trust their Heat Loss Calculations.

IF You have a New Build Flat / Built in the last 10 Years - You may have a VERY well Insulated / Draft Proof / Good Double Glazed Home - which would have significantly lower Heat Losses than an older property.

But IF they have not been to your Flat or do not know the Construction of the Walls and all of the other items that I mentioned they MAY be calculating your Flats Heat Requirements using the latest Building Regulations parameters.

I.E: For a Building which is EXTREMELY Well Insulated with the latest specification Double Glazing and perhaps `Heat Recovery Ventilation`.

IF that is the case then You might be disappointed with the Panel Heaters performance in Winter / Very Cold weather.


As You mentioned that the Bedrooms are not particularly large Rooms I hope that You do get Panel Heaters with outputs that suit the Heat requirements of those Rooms - but they would have to be very small Rooms or VERY well Insulated to require only 0.75kw [2559 BTU`s].


Good Luck with the installation.


Regards,

Chris
 
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