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johnduffell

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Hi all, just wanted some building control part p advice if anyone can help please?

Basically we're having a kitchen and bedroom built on the back of the house. The building plans have come back with conditional approval, and one of the conditions is an acceptable part p electrical installation certificate.

I'm not planning to do any notifiable work so I don't need to follow the prescribed certification process detailed in part p, but in section 3 even for non notifiable work it says it should be tested and certificated to BS7671. That's fine, I can test and fill in a minor electrical installation work certificate for each modified circuit, but I have no formal qualification to show for it.

My question is basically can building control insist that I prove that I've complied with BS7671 for non notifiable works (as part of a larger notifiable building job) is it down to them to do it at their expense if they like? I don't want to save 2k on an electrician only to send that money to the council for inspection charges anyway.

Thanks in advance, John
 
normally, building control would want to see that you have 2382 (17th ed.) for notifiable work in this case. if it's not notifiable, then i can't see a problem.
 
Best advice here is to contact building control and get their advice. If you discuss with them before any work starts, there is a route to take when installing the electrics yourself. It will involve some addition cost, as it means that the scheduled intervals of inspection by them is more involved. The inspector who comes to check the building work will also check the electrics you have installed at different stages.
 
Can you not ask building control if they would accept your certificate ? And did you really mean 2 thousand on electrician, I could nearly wire your whole house for that !
 
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Thanks for getting back to me all of you that's really useful, and yes I could ask, but BCOs don't necessarily know the edge cases/grey areas.
In this case, the easiest thing for them is to insist on a scheme registered electrician, so I'd rather start with what suits me rather than letting them decide what suits them.
Hence why I'm coming here because BCOs are covering all the areas whereas you guys know electrics inside out!
 
Every job I've been on, notifiable or not, it has stated on the plans that if you are not using a registered electrician then contact them in advance of the project starting. Don't let them railroad you into a decision that suits them.
 
Thanks for getting back to me all of you that's really useful, and yes I could ask, but BCOs don't necessarily know the edge cases/grey areas.
In this case, the easiest thing for them is to insist on a scheme registered electrician, so I'd rather start with what suits me rather than letting them decide what suits them.
Hence why I'm coming here because BCOs are covering all the areas whereas you guys know electrics inside out!
That's your problem. Your BCO will work from a crib sheet that says 'it is recommended you employ an electrician registered in a Part P scheme'. Is nice & easy for them if you do that. In your case, you will need to convince BC that you are competent, trouble is BC is not really up on checking qualifications. Your situation is not new, and when others have posted, competent electricians who are not registered with a scheme, have had no trouble convincing their BC that they are suitably qualified. It just depends whether your particular BC has come across this situation before.
As others have said, clear up this situation with your BC before you start your extension, and have them approve you doing the electrical work in writing. Without them being happy, they may not issue your Completion Certificate (for the extension), if your suddenly throw a 'spanner in the works' at the end.
PS The bottom line is your BCO will be issuing your said Completion Certificate, not this forum.
 
Thanks Midwest, actually I think you've hit the crux of my problem. Is it my job to convince then I'm competent or is it their job to prove I'm not? For these non-notifiable jobs it's not clear from section 3 of AD P.
I've replied to them now just saying I'm not doing any notifiable work and left the ball on their court, but I'm happy to argue with them to save 500 pounds+ in extra charges, but only if I'm sure I'm technically right.
 
As I said, they are going to issue the completion certificate, so I guess its down to you to convince them. How you do that is the problem. What qualifications have you got?

Some might advise, just go ahead without saying anything, and just show them the Minor Works certs at the end. But that would be a bit of a gamble :eek:

PS just as an aside, if you are having an extension, will you be adding new circuits?
 
The condition of an "acceptable part P electrical installation certificate" is a nonsense it is a bit like saying I want an MOT on my tyre change.
The Part P and the electrical installation certificate are related but not involved with each other.

It is down to you to demonstrate that an electrician registered with a self certification scheme is not required.
You could either wait until the extension is finished and building control are no longer involved and then do the wiring (a very much harder job) which as it is not notifiable is irrelevant to building control.
Alternatively you could as Midwest says provide evidence that this non notifiable work, that happens to be taking place at the same time as the extension, will be installed in accordance with both the wiring regulations and the building regulations and that a correctly and fully completed installation certificate will be provided to the owner on completion.
 
Just as an aside John, think you are confusing the notification process and Building Regs etc. Part P schemes allow electricians to notify work without seeking BCO prior approval.

In your case you have a planning application or building regs to complete a building extension. When the BC does the final inspection on your extension, they will look for suitable electrical certificate (s). So whether your doing work that only requires a minor works certificate (s) or not, the BC will still require said certificates before issuing the Completion Certificate. Just because you are not doing notifiable work, doesn't alter the final process and suitable electrical certificates.
 
Thanks Midwest actually I have no formal qualifications and will be adding no new circuits or changes in a bath or shower room.
I'll be modifying the existing kitchen ring to be kitchen/utility and the existing lighting circuits to cover the new area. The oven circuit I'll just move. But yeah I think you're right I need to sort this before I start not after I finished!

Richard that's a clever thought about getting the completion cert first. Although I need to sort out the ventilation to get the completion cert, and I'm not sure they would accept the extractor on a long extension lead!

I wonder what happens if you have a chimney demolished which has a socket on the side. Do they ask for a cert for moving the socket to the wall?

Anyway thanks for all the replies, that's really helpful and I'll be sure to update when I have a reply from them!
 
Midwest you're right that I'm a little confused about things- the electrical work is not notifiable but the whole job is which is only half addressed in the approved document.
Section 3 of part P approved document prescribes a process specifically for notifiable work, and then at the end for non notifiable work has some vague comment saying you should still follow the design, installation, testing and certification for BS7671, and if they find work that is unsafe they can serve enforcement.
I'll let you know what the BCO's interpretation is.
 
Midwest you're right that I'm a little confused about things- the electrical work is not notifiable but the whole job is which is only half addressed in the approved document.
Section 3 of part P approved document prescribes a process specifically for notifiable work, and then at the end for non notifiable work has some vague comment saying you should still follow the design, installation, testing and certification for BS7671, and if they find work that is unsafe they can serve enforcement.
I'll let you know what the BCO's interpretation is.

I was involved in producing an EICR for an extension job. No test certificates were produced for the electrical work done. The work done was not notifiable and yet my LBC absolutely would not sign the whole job off until the work was verified to be installed to BS7671, which it wasn't. It was a good call by them in this case.

Without being able to prove your competence to the LBC, not being in a competent persons scheme and not having any formal relevant qualifications, you might struggle to be able to convince LBC you should be doing this work and to recognise any certificate you produce.
I'm not trying to be derogatory, but I have no knowledge of your competence or experience with electrical installation.
 
Thanks Andy that's really useful. Who paid for you to do the EICR? And did you inspect first fix or literally just do an EICR on the finished job?
 
Thanks Andy that's really useful. Who paid for you to do the EICR? And did you inspect first fix or literally just do an EICR on the finished job?

The customer (house owner) paid me to do the EICR as the builder supplied sparky went awol at the end of the job. I inspected and tested the circuits altered apart from within floors, ceilings and walls as they were finished.

Don't bank on being able to get an electrician to do an EICR after the job though. That is entirely at the discretion of the LBC office based on the circumstances of the job. In this instance the LBC agreed that an EICR would suffice.

I have also known the same building control office to demand an entire rip out and start again. That was a rewire and extension done by an electrician on the side from his day job. He issued test certificates but could not notify the work. The officer involved demanded to visually inspect every cable run in its entirety to sign off, or have the job done again from scratch by a registered electrician. There were issues with the installation that prompted this response.
 
Midwest you're right that I'm a little confused about things- the electrical work is not notifiable but the whole job is which is only half addressed in the approved document.
Section 3 of part P approved document prescribes a process specifically for notifiable work, and then at the end for non notifiable work has some vague comment saying you should still follow the design, installation, testing and certification for BS7671, and if they find work that is unsafe they can serve enforcement.
I'll let you know what the BCO's interpretation is.
You have applied to BC for a planning permission or minor building works (permitted development). You will have submitted plans etc. All work must comply with Building Regulations. Part P (Building Regs) deals with electrical installations.

All the work carried out on your extension must comply with Building Regs. If you were carrying out electrical alterations or additions on your property on it's own, i.e. not as part of your extension for which you will have received planning permission, you would not need to notify BC as previously explained by others. However, this work (electrical) will form part of your of your approved extension, and therefore BC will need to see the appropriate electrical certificate(s) (as well as gas certs etc) before issuing you, your Completion Certificate.

When I had an extension done to my property, the BC asked to see & required copies of electrical installation certificate. You may have slipped this in by the back door, giving BC 'your' minor works certs, but I'm afraid you have kinda let the 'cat out of the bag' now. When I did my extension, I installed my own double glazing. As I'm not FENSA register, I had to submit a separate application to BC, costing ÂŁ80. I had to tell them when I started and when I finished. They only looked at them when my extension was finished. I could of glued my windows in. I didn't! But it did make a bit of a mockery of things.

As you've said you have no formal qualifications, I and, as others have said, would question your ability to competently carry out your electrical work. You will need test equipment to establish whether your installation has been correctly & safely installed. I'm a member of another non electrical forum. There was a guy there, who said he was an 'electrician', but did not test his install. It was only after he called in the local electricity board to alter his main fuse/meter, that he found out the suppliers earth was faulty and he did not have a suitable earth. He was quite blasé about it.

You may wish to reconsider you idea of carry out the electrical work yourself?
 
I should just clarify that I'm not trying to keep any cats in bags, I'm planning to do it all properly as after all it's my house where I sleep every night.

I should also point out when I said I'd fill in a minor electrical installation cert, I meant with the correct measured results, otherwise I'd be signing a false document. It's impossible to do any electrical work and know it meets safe standards without proper testing, that's why it's a requirement of BS7671. And if you've tested it you might as well write the results on a proper certificate.

You have given me a good idea regarding you doing notifiable work on the windows under a separate application and paying separately. I could just tell them I'd like to make a separate application for any notifiable electrical work.
 
Just out of interest John, when was the last time your test equipment was calibrated?
 
Spoon well the critical ones are the Ze tester which I compared last year against the one the DNO chap brought, and the loop tester which is easy to do yourself with a few measured lengths of t&e. Edit: and the IR function which I used some known high value resistors.

The RCD tester is very difficult, and was last done about 5 years ago which was before I bought it, but that's less likely to have lost calibration and also less critical to safety.
 

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