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trevki
Yes, being pretty much all of those things, I have had harsher criticism...some of it I almost agreed with
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Yes, being pretty much all of those things, I have had harsher criticism...some of it I almost agreed with
S
Stuuk1
I was speaking to our apprentice's JTL trainer the other day and apparently C&G has been dropped and they exclusively use EAL for all training now...
Are you suggesting other members are not sufficiently experienced to comment
The trade has suffered both technically with the short courses and practically with the lack of properly supervised on site training and experience that complimented the technical training during an apprenticeship this results in a poorer quality installation
So in an open book exam are you going to look up something you know, if you don't complete the exam is that because they didn't give you enough time to look up all the answers. With any learning model it doesn't force anybody to look up something they don't know but they can wing it with less knowledge and anybody that can use an index can find their way round a book they don't need EAL training for that. The current training system offers no solution to the lack of practical experience to support the technical theory as the complete training package was called an apprenticeship for which the current system has no equivalent
So are you saying the client drives the quality of training or if his budget doesn't extend to buying a quality installation he can't expect one, the client should get a quality installation whatever his budget be it a Mini or a Bentley he is buying
With regard to the EAL it may be an equal in the current training regime but along with the other established training body they need to restore the training to a level that creates properly trained electricians and restore some respect to the industry and themselves as providers of training. No matter how you dress it up the current qualifications both EAL and C&G they lack a lot and actually get the respect or lack of they deserve depending how you view the current training
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trevki
Sorry to read you feel so bitter over this thread, however my answer to most of your reply lies in my last post.
I am neither "saying" nor "suggesting" any of the words you are proposing to put in my mouth, as well you know. What I am stating is that the client should expect to pay for a quality job. If they do not want to pay for a quality job how is anyone able to provide them with such unless they subsidise the client with their own money? and as all our income is from clients this of course impacts on training budgets and influences where trainers spend that money.
Technically, electricians need to know more now than ever so the trend is upwards, from a practical point of view quality control, poor supervision, and inferior materials have all contributed to the actual installations going downhill and are all associated with cost cutting.
The thread is about EAL and C&G, I have made my opinions clear and will happily accept both, others choose not to share my view for their own reasons, though that does not mean they are right or wrong, but in time the EAL teaching model will be the norm. I have exhausted my views on this matter and will not be drawn into an argument, so for now I will take a back seat and read others comments with interest.
I am neither "saying" nor "suggesting" any of the words you are proposing to put in my mouth, as well you know. What I am stating is that the client should expect to pay for a quality job. If they do not want to pay for a quality job how is anyone able to provide them with such unless they subsidise the client with their own money? and as all our income is from clients this of course impacts on training budgets and influences where trainers spend that money.
Technically, electricians need to know more now than ever so the trend is upwards, from a practical point of view quality control, poor supervision, and inferior materials have all contributed to the actual installations going downhill and are all associated with cost cutting.
The thread is about EAL and C&G, I have made my opinions clear and will happily accept both, others choose not to share my view for their own reasons, though that does not mean they are right or wrong, but in time the EAL teaching model will be the norm. I have exhausted my views on this matter and will not be drawn into an argument, so for now I will take a back seat and read others comments with interest.
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- Reaction score
- 3,569
What the hell is EAL? Stinks of Domestic Installer to me!
The EAL equivalent to the C&G 2391/2394+2395 is pure Mickey Mousery, plain and simple!
There are those with half a brain cell (mainly career changers) that have no technical knowledge that go on to pass the 2391/2394+2395 after being taught by rote and being fed past paper by past paper, but that percentage is still thankfully rather low. Give anyone of any level a book to take into an exam with them and anyone can pass it though?!
The 2391 was never designed to be a stand alone qualification, you were supposed to know how to test and inspect without it, taking the exams would then mean that you had written proof of testing knowledge, ie. You can prove on paper that you can put into practice what you have learned over the years. It was supposed to sort the wheat from the chaff, I suppose it still does to a very very small degree. The EAL has been designed however to be a stand alone qualification as it is aimed at those who have very little experience testing and inspecting. This is why the course is longer and the exam ten times easier with it being open book!
Industry recognised my ar$e! I'm an employer and if someone came looking to me for a job with an EAL qual they'd get laughed out the door! I want people coming to me who have at least attempted to keep some valuable knowledge in their heads as opposed to relying on a book that they can't even interpret for information! You don't need to look very far to point the finger of blame at an organisation that is at least partly responsible for the catastrophic deskilling of our industry than EAL! If EAL quals become the norm in future, there will be some very rich C&G qualified sparks out there!
What next, the EAL level 4 design course? A ten week course, a 5 hour design project and a free copy of EAL's design software thrown in to help them on their merry way?!?!
What a joke!
The EAL equivalent to the C&G 2391/2394+2395 is pure Mickey Mousery, plain and simple!
There are those with half a brain cell (mainly career changers) that have no technical knowledge that go on to pass the 2391/2394+2395 after being taught by rote and being fed past paper by past paper, but that percentage is still thankfully rather low. Give anyone of any level a book to take into an exam with them and anyone can pass it though?!
The 2391 was never designed to be a stand alone qualification, you were supposed to know how to test and inspect without it, taking the exams would then mean that you had written proof of testing knowledge, ie. You can prove on paper that you can put into practice what you have learned over the years. It was supposed to sort the wheat from the chaff, I suppose it still does to a very very small degree. The EAL has been designed however to be a stand alone qualification as it is aimed at those who have very little experience testing and inspecting. This is why the course is longer and the exam ten times easier with it being open book!
Industry recognised my ar$e! I'm an employer and if someone came looking to me for a job with an EAL qual they'd get laughed out the door! I want people coming to me who have at least attempted to keep some valuable knowledge in their heads as opposed to relying on a book that they can't even interpret for information! You don't need to look very far to point the finger of blame at an organisation that is at least partly responsible for the catastrophic deskilling of our industry than EAL! If EAL quals become the norm in future, there will be some very rich C&G qualified sparks out there!
What next, the EAL level 4 design course? A ten week course, a 5 hour design project and a free copy of EAL's design software thrown in to help them on their merry way?!?!
What a joke!
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I'm about to complete (hopefully) my 1st year of 3yrs at college to become a fully qualified Electical Installer. All colleges that I contacted prior to starting advised me that they no longer use C&G, and use EAL, as the standards had dropped etc. As EAL standards are NVQ level 3 throughout, rather than being level 2 and progressing to level 3, the end result of the qualification seems to be the same (hence why JIB accept it). Well I bloody well hope so after the 3 years and £1,000's I'll be spending on gaining the qualifications.
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Your college are talking nonsense. The old C&G 2330 was two years at level 2 and one year at level 3. The new C&G 2365 (the knowledge unit part of the C&G 2375) is at level 3 throughout. The only reason they are using EAL is because they are cheaper than C&G and being supposedly industry recognised (which they aren't in all honesty) allows further education providers to run them as the full ticket.
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WHY oh WHY can't their just beat one industry recognised qualification body, one industry scheme, one way to become an electrician...
It's not rocket science.
Take other lines of life .... wonder what the goverment would say if someone tried to set-up and challenge, say, the DVLA. Wouldn't happen would it!
It's not rocket science.
Take other lines of life .... wonder what the goverment would say if someone tried to set-up and challenge, say, the DVLA. Wouldn't happen would it!
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I don't see why employers would (and do) discriminate against the EAL qualifications if the JIB doesn't? It is bloody worrying if it then hinders me later down the line when I'm looking for work etc, have spent 3 years at college and am thousands in debt to the qualification.
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The EAL Inspection and Testing qualification is open-book, meaning you have all the answers in front of you.
The C+G Inspection and Testing qualification is closed-book, meaning if you don't know it you aint passing ...
Put that to your tutor, im sure when you realise that you can see why people discriminate against the EAL...
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Although having said that, from what was said earlier about the C+G it unforunatley looks like they're soon to be discrimiated against aswell!
The whole system is a farce!
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The flip side to an open book exam is they can ask you anything and it has to be 100% correct as the information is there at your fingertips, rather than being a slightly more open question / answer.
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You still have to use the exact correct terminology in the closed book exam's aswell.
Personally, i can't see any benefit to an open book exam, or these multiple-choice nonsense's. I mean multiple-choice ... if ure extremley lucky, you can pass it without knowing the foggiest about electrics... if i ever win the lottery i'll pay for one of my non-electrician mates too sit the 17th multiple-choice joke exam, be interesting too see the result.
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Badged01
The trouble with "open book" or "closed book" exams, whichever one you take, I think you can guarantee a few good years down the line you wont still be able to remember everything you knew for the exam and will need to consult the "book" -- so your real life problem will become an open book solution (exam)!
But if you still can remember everything from so many years ago (and I can't) you have one hell of a mind and are in the wrong profession ...... you should be making big bucks using that brain! Unless of course you are just in the game for the love of it and money is pretty meaningless to you!!
But if you still can remember everything from so many years ago (and I can't) you have one hell of a mind and are in the wrong profession ...... you should be making big bucks using that brain! Unless of course you are just in the game for the love of it and money is pretty meaningless to you!!
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I'm on the EAL level 2 course and I agree with some of the arguments for and against.
Open book, well I see this as a non issue. It's a heavily regulated industry and just because you think you know doesn't mean you shouldn't refer to the regs to confirm. Whilst doing the exams it's open book for ONE of the exams and yes the answers are in it but you have to understand what it actually means and how to interpret it. If your on site and never refer to the books when doing a job you haven't done before or a Long while your either a genius or your ego is far too big. It's about making sure people continually refer to the regs.
Exams online multiple choice, personally for some topics like fixings etc this is fine. More technical stuff I do think they should be written so you can actually show an understanding rather than just a best guess. I believe level 3 is more written than multiple choice.
It is an industry recognised qualification but it doesn't have the history c&g does, but it will in the as c&g aren't what they used to be. Unfortunately it's more about the pass mark for ALL courses now rather than the actual quality of the student at the end.
Pass is a pass and that's all they care about. From a student who is actually doing ok on the course I can't distinguish myself from the guy who is literally scraping through. If we both pass on paper we are equal and in that respect c&g is no different.
If your an employer and you are employing a c&g qualified guy over EAL that's your choice but it doesn't actually mean your getting a better trained person. In my college it was c&g until a while back the lecturers are teaching the same information just a different qualification at the end.
Open book, well I see this as a non issue. It's a heavily regulated industry and just because you think you know doesn't mean you shouldn't refer to the regs to confirm. Whilst doing the exams it's open book for ONE of the exams and yes the answers are in it but you have to understand what it actually means and how to interpret it. If your on site and never refer to the books when doing a job you haven't done before or a Long while your either a genius or your ego is far too big. It's about making sure people continually refer to the regs.
Exams online multiple choice, personally for some topics like fixings etc this is fine. More technical stuff I do think they should be written so you can actually show an understanding rather than just a best guess. I believe level 3 is more written than multiple choice.
It is an industry recognised qualification but it doesn't have the history c&g does, but it will in the as c&g aren't what they used to be. Unfortunately it's more about the pass mark for ALL courses now rather than the actual quality of the student at the end.
Pass is a pass and that's all they care about. From a student who is actually doing ok on the course I can't distinguish myself from the guy who is literally scraping through. If we both pass on paper we are equal and in that respect c&g is no different.
If your an employer and you are employing a c&g qualified guy over EAL that's your choice but it doesn't actually mean your getting a better trained person. In my college it was c&g until a while back the lecturers are teaching the same information just a different qualification at the end.
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With regards to the testing and inspection qualification, yes it does! End of!
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- 30
Really both approved courses so just because you say it's so doesn't mean it's so lol
- Reaction score
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No, you're quite right, just because I say so doesn't make it so, but evidently, open book exams have always been easier than closed book exams. The C&G exam tests your fundamental knowledge of testing and inspection procedures, the EAL exam tests your knowledge of how to read and interpret a book.
The latter is clearly the easier option! How can this be arguable?!
I feel sorry for you mate because whoever sold you EAL for your T&I qual sold you a lie! Despite what they tell you, EAL is not industry recognised and is widely viewed as a joke. The only people who accept EAL are the scam schemes who frankly, would accept any old crap as an excuse to sign you up and take your money.
- Reaction score
- 30
See like you that was what I thought so I did my homework. I spoke with several large companies in the area to seek their opinion. At the end of the day I'm likely to be working for them and they were all happy with either EAL or c&g.
The main issue is no provider in this area within an hours travel
Is doing c&g. I would have had to do it as a distance learning course which is a joke.
Of course an open book exam will be easier but the exam isn't based on your memory it's about doing it correctly and to the regulations. If your attitude is you don't need the book the your a genius. You'd never learn all the regulations in the time scale but you will learn a lot fair do.
Just because you have the on site guide there in front of you not everything in the exam is found in the on site guide the only book you can take in. Even then when it's there you still need to know how to calculate and use the information correctly.
Also if it was so much easier the pass rate would be 100% for everyone that takes the exam surely?? Which isn't the case, if you don't know what to look for in the book or how I interpret it then it's useless
The main issue is no provider in this area within an hours travel
Is doing c&g. I would have had to do it as a distance learning course which is a joke.
Of course an open book exam will be easier but the exam isn't based on your memory it's about doing it correctly and to the regulations. If your attitude is you don't need the book the your a genius. You'd never learn all the regulations in the time scale but you will learn a lot fair do.
Just because you have the on site guide there in front of you not everything in the exam is found in the on site guide the only book you can take in. Even then when it's there you still need to know how to calculate and use the information correctly.
Also if it was so much easier the pass rate would be 100% for everyone that takes the exam surely?? Which isn't the case, if you don't know what to look for in the book or how I interpret it then it's useless
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