EICR process

[codger]

Hello. I have been asked on numerous occasions to carry out EICRs for various people/companies. It's an area I have thought about getting involved in, but now not so sure.
I teach the 2394/95 and thought it would be a good way of getting some 'hands on' experience to enhance my understanding of the whole process, and ultimately make me better at answering questions on future courses, as well as generating some extra income for myself.
I have tried to go by the book, requesting a meeting with the client to detail what will be involved, expected time for the process, what will be tested, what will not be tested and all the other information the book says should be discussed prior to carrying out the inspection/testing.
What I am finding is that the clients aren't really interested / don't care what is involved as long as there is minimum disruption in the shortest possible time for the lowest possible price. This obviously impacts on the process and has made it, to me, not worthwhile doing. The whole process is fraught with anomalies. There are problems getting circuits disconnected, problems getting access to areas for test, problems explaining to clients what the codes mean, and then, if there are C1/C2 findings, I find that they don't treat the findings seriously and think you are being over zealous with your findings.
Are there any sparks out there who do the process properly, or as Guidance Note 3 suggests or is this just an electrical fantasy.? Also, what seems to be the going rate for an EICR?
Think I'm just going to give these things a miss from now on. Too much grief for very little reward.
Thanks

 

[SJD]

I do domestic EICRs now and again. I find some customers want them doing properly, and will pay the going rate e.g. taking between 0.5 and 1.0 day (up to 4/5 beds). These tend to be customers who have some vested interested in knowing the true state of the installation, e.g. I did a couple recently for people buying a house.

Others are often more concerned to have ticked the box, and if they can tick it much cheaper for a skimped job then that is what they will prefer. This tends to be landlords and people having an EICR done because their insurance has requested it.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Codger welcome to the world of electrical contracting. I'm so pleased to read a post where you have brilliantly outlined the obstacles that is faced with probably 95% of all commercial/industrial installations.

The EICR has been forced upon businesses in the same way as PAT testing as. Though PAT testing is no more a statutory thing than an EICR, the PAT regime is driven by the EAWR-1998 and EICRs are driven by insurance.

Most businesses in order to get insured need these tests, but unfortunately having these tests done is expensive. So we have ended up with PAT testing as a "lick & stick" exercise, and unfortunately EICRs are going down that same route.

For me there is no excuse anyone can put on not testing a domestic installation. There maybe a few exceptions but 99% of domestic homes can be isolated without too much inconvenience for a day at least. Therefore proper testing can be done

Commercial and especially industrial is a totally different thing. You have a myriad of considerations, lost production, access times, essential services, physical constraints on access, and the list could be endless.

So the owner/manager wants it done as you say, quick, minimum of fuss and bother, cheap. What can we do about this, well unless you are also a fantastic salesman, very little.

This is where your experience comes in. I can usually walk onto an installation and withing a quick walk around and some very high level dismantling normally tell what I can expect. I'm not 100% always right, but I can safely say that in the last 15 yrs of doing testing, I can count on one hand where I got it totally wrong.

With this experience you can test to suit. As you know, the tester will confirm what and how deep the testing will go. If you feel comfortable that the installation is sound and SAFE then you may omit certain tests. If you feel that the place is falling apart then you either have to persaude your client of this, or really shamefully to say walk away.

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Hi

I do follow the tests and inspections laid down in GN3 and I do charge £140 for the testing. I lose absolutely loads of testing because of this, probably more than 50% of all enquires. I try to be absolutely fair in the testing and will spend extra hours finding the cause of say a low IR and resolving it. I do this so that anyone can know that if I say the place needs a rewire you can hang you hat on that opinion and it isnt the result of lazy testing. i like to think that if the customer had another test done after mine they would not be able to throw into question any of my findings. I think it is perfectly acceptable though to have limitations imposed especially where many peoples work would be interrupted. but they should be noted well and not be the same limitations on the next test for the same install.
As the last posts says, dead testing should always be achievable on a domestic install. however removing floorboards and accessing lofts sometimes isnt especially on tenanted properties, where you are seen as an intrusion to privacy for they whole time that you are there.

So i think you should hold out and price and do the tests correctly, you will lose a lot of work to cowboys, but if people use them they normally know what they are going to get and that is their lookout. I always say to enquirers of the service that they will find cheaper, but if some one is not going to do the job properly, you may as well just send them a photo of your fuseboard for them to write the report from for all the value it will provide and is that really worth anything - in fact cut out the middle man and just buy a pad of reports and write it yourself if it is fiction your're after.

 

[Tony Way]

Same for me - Domestic testing = 100% of the install. People seem surprised when I tell them that for a 4 Bed house I will be there for at least 6 hours (I fill in the details/results etc on software package as I go so there is no additional office work later). But I invariably get the work to put right was is found as C1/C2 and sometimes even the C3s.
Just need to be as patient as possible, even to the extent of using more general terms for results and recommendations rather than what we would see as the correct terms.
The only time I don't put results in is when I can't identify a circuit - usually because is is not used and terminated in a floor somewhere. I then disconnect at the CU, but leave it that it can be re-connected as you never quite know.
It always surprises me that a customer will not quibble about an £70.00 bill for a gas certificate (usually about 20 mins from foot through the door to back in the van) but be astounded that you want to charge £160.00 for 6 hours testing.

 

[Englishman]

The vast majority of customers complain about the cost of electrics (installation and testing) because they seem to think that it's easy and take the view of "it works" or "it's always worked fine" and due to the fact that most faults are completely invisible until they're tested.

I also won't drop prices, although I charge less than you two, as I'd rather not do it, than do it for a pathetic price.

 

[codger]

Thanks for your replies lads. I have to say that the problem is not with the domestic customer, but at the moment I am in the middle of testing a pub....3 boards and less than ideal wiring techniques. I was given the previous inspection and testing information, which I thought would be a great help and allow me to reduce the amount of circuits requiring testing. On examination of the previous results however I have noticed that the guy has exactly the same R1+R2 value for all the lighting circuits, all the same results for the ring circuits and then the same values for the rest of the circuits. The landlady was charged £350 for this.....said he was there for about an hour.!! Just twists my melons, honestly. I'm standing in front of classes trying to teach them good practice, and basically the whole process is a joke. Sometimes wish I was a painter......no, I don't really. Nothing's that bad.:icon10:

 

[DuaneMHunt1976]

My tutor.told me about a.group of.lads.that call.that testing style.Van test
You sit in your van and make.up.numbers

Another tutor.who did a.full eicr.on his.own house, said.it took him all day.and he knew were every thing was
Don't know.how.big his house.is

 

[baldsparkies]

Well AMD3 has added to the confusion.
For example coding socket outlets within commercial premises has become a minefield from what I have been told.
You enter a company with non RCD protected outlets and do what Code 3 Code 2 ask about duty holders, there responsibilities your responsibilities as the sparks coding and testing. Who uses what and how that impacts on specific situations and equipment.
Is there a risk assessment to back up any decisions made to allow operatives/employees to use sockets without rcd protection.
AMD 3 ?? How deep does the rabbit hole go.
And how much does a company want to spend to fit rcd back up to all there sockets,when only months ago it wasn't the issue its been turned into ???????

 

[alanl]

Amd. 3 has not added any confusion.
New Installs of socket outlets should be RCD protected (ok there are caveats, read the book), but old installs are rated just as they were a year ago.

 

[baldsparkies]

Amd. 3 has not added any confusion.
New Installs of socket outlets should be RCD protected (ok there are caveats, read the book), but old installs are rated just as they were a year ago.

Agreed, however the caveat to which you refer would be more relevant to a risk assessment than the book.
Its where your responsibility ends, and the responsibility of the person or persons writing that risk assessment begins that needs to be clarified on the report, as opposed to say a simple code 3 where a circuit complies to an older version of BS7671 as opposed to the current version.
So how do you code those commercial non rcd sockets now, as opposed to say this time last year when AMD 3 wasn't in force ??

 

[alanl]

You code them exactly as before, Amd 3 hasnt changed that.