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  1. dinger809
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    dinger809 EF Member

    Location:
    Essex
    Business Name:
    .
    Good morning people. Just been having a "chat" with another sparks on site regarding core usage of three core for emergency lighting. I have always (and everyone I know) has used brown as switch line and black as permanent. He has wired a whole floor of a care home opposite to me. Your views as trying to find where it may be written, I'm sure I've seen it in the regs somewhere or at least as a guidance note.
    I thank you in advance
     
  2. andyb
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    andyb Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    West Sussex
    I don't know if there's a right or wrong way, but for what it's worth, I've always wired them the same as your mate with brown as the permanent live. I do smoke detectors the same way.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Vortigern
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    Vortigern Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    England
    Business Name:
    F.H. Electrical
    I have come across both ways often. I usually label them anyway for future and my current use.
     
  4. davesparks
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    davesparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    guildford
    I would tend towards brown for permanent and black for switched, but on an existing installation match whatever has been used previously.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    As long as they are correctly identified it does not matter.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. LankyWill
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    LankyWill Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northants
    I'm more black for permanent and brown for S/L. Doesn't matter but I always check with whom I'm working with anyway, avoids simple mistakes and fault finding.
     
  7. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    i tend to use black for perm. Land brown for sw/L.my reason being that the normal switch uses brown ( or blue sleeved brown) for sw/L.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Risteard
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    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Business Name:
    Walsh Electrical Services
    You won't have this problem if you don't use a domestic cable in a non-domestic premises!
     
  9. davesparks
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    davesparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    guildford
    Care to expand on that? I don't think there is any cable which is restricted to domestic use. And this question is not unique to a single cable type, it occurs with T&E, FP200, BS8436 type and the final flex connection to the light fittings.
     
  10. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    and SWA.
     
  11. Risteard
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    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Business Name:
    Walsh Electrical Services
    LOL well the usual way is to use singles in containment. Then these can be of the correct colour throughout their length, as preferred by BS7671.

    It's no secret that T&E type cables (and three-core and Earth for that matter) are designed for domestic installation. Their use in non-domestic installations is certainly not something to celebrate!

    Incidentally, as much as I despise T&E, I now have to stock two different types of T&E as of this day last week. The traditional T&E was banned in the south of Ireland a week ago (although there were already certain differences such as 16mm^2 T&E had a 10mm^2 cpc instead of a 6mm^2 one).
     
  12. Murdoch
    Online

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    Brown for permanent, black (sleeved) for switched, grey, (sleeved) for neutral
     
  13. davesparks
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    davesparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    guildford
    It is only usual when that is the best suited to the installation, to say that it is universally the best method is a very narrow minded view.

    If T&E is designed for domestic installation only then why are they produced in LSF variants?

    This still doesn't address all of the other cable types which are in use, FP200, bs8436, NYY-J, SWA, flex etc etc

    Why do you despise T&E?
     
  14. dinger809
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    dinger809 EF Member

    Location:
    Essex
    Business Name:
    .
    Gents, as always, there are varied opinions. For the information of some; the electrical consultant stipulated T&E LSF throughout, otherwise containment such as conduit would have caused issues with other services. Basket was usedin part, which is fine for T&E
    The only issue as always, is if one person is doing one thing and someone else the opposite, there is always the issue of fault causing. Although the regs get bigger every few years, simple things that can cause a problem seem to be down to us to decide on a day by day basis
     
  15. Risteard
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    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Business Name:
    Walsh Electrical Services
    I despise T&E because it is cheap domestic cable which is widely misused. I generally install it in domestic premises because I wouldn't otherwise compete on price. But that is not to say that it has any place outside the domestic sector. As for LSF T&E, they simply produce it because demand exists for it. That doesn't mean that it is good practice. 6491B in steel trunking with steel conduit drops (or PVC conduit drops if appropriate) is the generally accepted way!

    As for Hi-Tuff; SWA; FP200 et al I was being facetious about core colours to highlight a point. However in the south of Ireland remarking conductors at terminations is prohibited in almost all situations (except for the likes of 7-core or more cables from memory) - this is a better installation practice. Cores are then identifiable throughout their length.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    I think you'd struggle on price in the commercial sector as well as twin and earth is very versatile and used everywhere for fixed wiring These days , unless specified differently by the client it's here to stay.
     
  17. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    deleted
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  18. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    Why the ban on T&E?
     
  19. Risteard
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    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Business Name:
    Walsh Electrical Services
    As opposed to banning T&E, IS 201 has changed the requirements for it. This has been in the pipeline for a number of years, with the Amendment to the Wiring Rules being implemented from last Tuesday. What this means is that all sizes of T&E now have an insulated cpc instead of a bare cpc. Also the cpc is of the same cross-sectional area as the live conductors. The use of the old type T&E from the 5th September 2017 has been prohibited.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  20. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Remember installing some T&E back in the eighties which had a sleeved cpc.
     
  21. davesparks
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    davesparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    guildford
    Any idea why these requirements were brought in? Have there been any incidents which have occurred as a result of uninsulated CPC's or some technical reason for the change?

    Do the regulations generally require cpcs to be of the same CSA as the line conductor in all wiring, or is it unique to T&E? Are you permitted to calculate the require s size of CPC if using singles for example?
     
  22. davesparks
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    davesparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    guildford
    Why do you say that it is domestic cable? Is there any regulatory or technical reason for this?
     
  23. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    for small industrial and commercial installations, compare the cost of singles in trunking and galv conduit vs T/E o tray or basket. 9/10 clients will go for T/E.
     
  24. Risteard
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    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Business Name:
    Walsh Electrical Services
    Yes you can carry out an adiabatic calculation with singles instead of selecting from a table (much like BS7671) - however, it isn't a common approach. I presume that the reason for the full size cpc is largely due to harmonisation.
     
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