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  1. Gavin John Hyde
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    Gavin John Hyde Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Somerset
    Business Name:
    Sulis Electrical Services
    Whats peoples approach when dealing with the earth fly leads on RCBOs?
    Got a board to fit next week and the bits arrived today. So been busy getting rid of packaging and putting bits together ready and checking its all arrived.
    Hager say you can trim the fly lead and nuetrals down if needed as long as you use a suitable ferrule or termination. The supply neutrals arent so much an issue as they are quite thick.
    The fly leads are so thin and flexible that i think id struggle to find a decent ferrule or crimped connector to go on the end to then go in the earth bar. Anybody got recommendations for ferrules?
    Likewise how do you terminate them?
    If i have space i will terminate them on their own in the earth bar. Otherwise i terminate with the corresponding cpc.
    Keeping each circuits bits together.
    Can be bit awkward with a ring final or 10mm circuit though. So in these instances i put them in the earth bar separately. Just got to be careful when tightening that you get a good grip as its easy for them to go down side of screw and be loose.
    The new CU i am installing is only 7 RCBOS in a 10 way board so lots of space to make it look pretty.
     
  2. darkwood
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    darkwood It's all about Gmes Staff Member Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    If you cut them down then you will need to crimp them as instructed in both the Regs and the installation guide as you have mentioned, been a while since I done them and they may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer but probably a white or blue ferrule (bootlace) crimp will do...
    I would have thought the majority of sparks now should have a ferrule kit as part of their tools, all fine stranded terminations require some form of crimping unless what you are terminating into is specifically designed for fine wire (e.g. - lever style connector). It amazes me tbh how many sparkies do not crimp up the cables when fitting a standard plug top.
    If you have yet to build your tool collection up then just leave them as supplied and took them behind the raised dinrail mount if the board design allows you to.
     
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  3. Gavin John Hyde
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    Gavin John Hyde Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Somerset
    Business Name:
    Sulis Electrical Services
    I have more tools than i know what to do with. Some i dont even know what the tool is for other than it looked nice when i bought it.
    I have quite arange of crimps and ferrules just none designed for such thin fly leads... I may have to invest in some for future jobs. This time i may just tuck them behind the din rail.
     
  4. darkwood
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    darkwood It's all about Gmes Staff Member Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    They can be a stretch on the budget, I have several crimpers myself which total quite a few pennies although I need a few crimpers most sparks would never need in their day to day jobs.
     
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  5. mhar
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    mhar Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    devon
    Use SBS single module double pole compact rcbos that don't have fly leads. Very neat
     
  6. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    I personally don't cut the functional earth leads just tie them up and loose any slack in the board, easy to do In a 3 phase db.

    I've also never crimped terminals when fitting a standard 3 pin plug top as I don't quite see the need
     
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  7. Wilko
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    Wilko Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Berkshire
    Business Name:
    Wilko Electrics
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  8. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    all mine came out of the free issue bins when i was subbing to a large company. had to buy the organiser to put them in though.
     
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  9. Gavin John Hyde
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    Gavin John Hyde Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Somerset
    Business Name:
    Sulis Electrical Services
  10. darkwood
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    darkwood It's all about Gmes Staff Member Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    This tends to be the problem in that people don't see an issue, plug tops tend to be a grub crew terminal with either a pointed, flattened or rounded base and often when fully tightened they have gaps to the side of the thread which the fine wire can be pushed into thus not getting a good solid contact, or with the pointed ones they can cut through the delicate stands as oppose to clamp them, on little loads like a table lamp etc this is really not going to be a concern but when you get to heavy loads especially those that are on for long duration then this can be a major factor to plugs overheating on the live or neutral pin.
    Yes, twisting the strands can reduce the problem but it not a solution and as a professional should not be the solution, all products you buy where you can open the plug top will show that even the manufacturers have to follow the same rules here.

    Don't get me wrong here, I was too one of those who thought nothing of wiring a plug up without crimping but when it was explained and shown then it was clear why the reg's exist on this and I have crimped them ever since, more than a decade later though when this was been highlighted in the trade I do struggle to understand why so many people still do not hold the correct attitude on this matter and/or why it is not been pushed and embedded in students minds at college level.
     
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  11. cprfenom
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    cprfenom Regular EF Member

    Can I ask a slightly different question.

    Do you put the fly lead in the corresponding earth terminal?

    Would it be a code on an Eicr if they did not correspond to the correct circuit/rcbo?

    I recently saw an Eicr with a c2 because the neutrals and cpcs were not in the corresponding terminal on the earth/neutral bar
     
  12. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Which Regulations for terminating a 13A plug top as a matter of interest.
     
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  13. Wilko
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    Wilko Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Berkshire
    Business Name:
    Wilko Electrics
    Do you put the fly lead in the corresponding earth terminal?
    Yes

    Would it be a code on an Eicr if they did not correspond to the correct circuit/rcbo?
    If securely attached and working then it's not dangerous so not C1. No possibility of danger if a fault occurred (that I can imagine), so not C2.
     
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  14. PEG
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    PEG Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Manchester
    If i had a pound,for everytime someone asked "What you doing,there?"...it would be for crimping fine wire,when fitting plug tops.
    It is something i have done for most of my working life-from the time me dads pal,gave me an old Gedore set of crimpers,and a handful of plain ferrules,from his P.O. supply bag.

    What specific regulation covers this,in a domestic setting,i am not sure,but "correct and suitable termination of conductors..." covers this practice,amply.

    No matter who or how,a plug top is fitted,one which has the conductors fitted with ferrules,looks more professional.

    You can get a range of sizes,for about £12,put them in a little,sectioned Mustad fly-box (£3),the size of a phone,and stick it anywhere. Some Knipex multi-pliers come with a facility to crimp smaller ferrules,so these are your plug top pliers.

    Time consuming,picky,pedantic? ...maybe. But certainly,professional. :cool:
     
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  15. Wilko
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    Wilko Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Berkshire
    Business Name:
    Wilko Electrics
    Hi - I take it from the general directive in 526.9.1 - your thoughts?
     
  16. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    i have to admit that with plug tops, i generally twist and double over. the ferrules with the plastic shields tend not to fit, and i can't be arsed buying the "plain" ones. i have been known to tin the ends though.
     
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  17. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Yes that one where no definition is given for multiwire, fine wire or very fine wire. To me that covers all conductors beyond solid core does it not. Whatever it refers to the requirement is to fit suitable terminals or suitably treat the ends.
     
  18. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Yes that one where no definition is given for multiwire, fine wire or very fine wire. To me that covers all conductors beyond solid core does it not. Whatever it refers to the requirement is to fit suitable terminals or suitably treat the ends.
     
  19. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    I have yet to see a manufactured pendant set where the ends of the cord are ferruled in any way.
     
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  20. Wilko
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    Wilko Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Berkshire
    Business Name:
    Wilko Electrics
    Any of the listed conductors that you judge to be at risk of "inappropriate separation or spreading" in the proposed connection - would shall be my take :)
     
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  21. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    Good point
     
  22. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    Still can't see any problem fitting 1.0 mm flex in a plug top without ferrules.
    It's not like the terminals are massive nor the grub screw.
     
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  23. Leesparkykent
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    Leesparkykent You Rock Gmes Staff Member Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Kent
    I cut and ferrule them...I'm doing a 3phase board today.

    IMG_0994.JPG
     
  24. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    Really?
    Looks to me like your just drinking coffee!;)
    I used to work for keepmoat on the property services side.
     
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  25. Leesparkykent
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    Leesparkykent You Rock Gmes Staff Member Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Kent
    I don't drink that Poncey stuff.....Only tea here mate. 18 way 3phase board and £1200 worth of 10KA RCBO's going in today :)
     
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  26. cprfenom
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    cprfenom Regular EF Member

    You missed the Energy drink! I can't see how mixing tea with Monster can taste the least bit nice!
     
  27. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    Don't do energy drinks , yuk!
    I get my caffeine from 6 cup of coffees during the working day.
    Maybes that why all my accessories are wonky :D
     
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  28. Wilko
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    Wilko Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Berkshire
    Business Name:
    Wilko Electrics
    Don't hate me ... straight out of the packet :rolleyes:

    IMG_0800.JPG
     
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  29. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Well there you go:D
     
  30. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    I can upload deta pendant if you like?
    But I assure you the flex don't come crimped
     
  31. Lucien Nunes
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    Lucien Nunes Mercury Arc Rectifier Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    London
    I use plain uninsulated ferrules in plugs and other accessories when building equipment in the workshop, but I don't lose any sleep if it's not convenient to do so out and about, as most plugs make a sound connection if the wire is suitably prepared. Some connectors like good quality IECs have conductor protection under the screw anyway and don't need ferrules at all. I first started ferruling in plugs after I saw sparks doing it in Germany in about 1989 when I was on a work experience exchange from school.

    Re. RCBO FE flyleads I keep blue 0.75 and white 0.5mm² ferrules in the kit as standard.

    Re. tinning ends of fine stranded, I don't like it at all. It makes things look neat but over time the solder cold-flows out from amongst the strands under the pressure of the screw. I've seen tinned ends in choc block go completely slack after a year or two of thermal cycling.
     
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  32. darkwood
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    darkwood It's all about Gmes Staff Member Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    @westward10@westward10

    Wilko has already pointed to the regulation which does express all fine-wire should be suitably crimped, I haven't the regs to hand but I am going by memory and previous discussion on this matter, the exception is if the connection device is designed to take fine-wire without it been dressed, plug tops are not designed to accept fine-wire undressed so the regulation applies that they would indeed need a uninsulated ferrule crimp.... insulated tend to have issues fitting in the plug top.

    If you look at any BS standard goods that come with a terminated flex you should find it has been suitably crimped or has had special terminals fitted be it a drop, a plug top or the internal wiring of a product, you will not see them connected bare anymore into a standard screw terminal, the regulations are across the board, it is now our industry that is lacking in applying this standard and not the manufacturers as used to be 15yrs ago.
     
  33. darkwood
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    darkwood It's all about Gmes Staff Member Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    Please do, is this a new pendant that hasn't been shortened or doesn't have specific terminations designed for fine-wire, if it is new and does not dress the fine-wire then it is probably in breach of their own BS regulations for such products... I am interested to see your upload as the last Deta I did was dressed cable ends but as they are uninsulated crimps you sometimes need to take them out to see the crimp.
     
  34. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    What about those MK plug tops, you would have to snip off crimped terminals :)

    upload_2017-9-14_17-25-36.jpeg
     
  35. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    A slightly bigger picture :rolleyes:

    [​IMG]
     
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  36. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Whilst I am not disagreeing the Regulation does not state they should be suitably crimped but "suitable terminals shall be used or the conductor ends shall be suitably treated", whatever that implies. Whether this applies to a plug top or fixed wiring, the latter I suspect.
     
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  37. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    This is the connection instructions from a rewirable plug top and it states nothing of fitting ferrules or the like. 20170914_174817.jpg
     
  38. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    Back on site tomorrow so I will do
    And I use deta all the time
     
  39. DPG
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    DPG Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    S Yorkshire
    Agree with Lucien - it is not good practice to tin the ends of stranded wire if they are being inserted into a screw terminal.

    Ferrules in 13A plug-tops? Really?
     
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  40. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    IMG_3041.JPG IMG_3043.JPG IMG_3042.JPG IMG_3040.JPG IMG_3040.JPG
     
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  41. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    IMG_3044.JPG IMG_3045.JPG IMG_3046.JPG Volex pendant also must not comply as well then??
     
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  42. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Comply with what I wonder.
     
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  43. davesparks
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    davesparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    guildford
    The terms are defined in other British standards and if you look at the data sheets for the cable it should tell you what type and class of conductor it is.
     
  44. darkwood
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    darkwood It's all about Gmes Staff Member Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    I will do some digging as to which standard cover the likes of deta and volex for pendants etc, but you can visually see the strands are not clamped correctly in those screw terminals, the only positive on it is the fact the current is so small compared to the ccc of that cable that even a poor termination with the fine-wire wouldn't give rise to an issue.
     
  45. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    IEC 60228:2004?
     
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