gas/water mains earthing?

[krissiboy]

Another sparky told me lately that when you change a consumer unit then you must upgrade the earthing to the gas and water mains if needed. It's a bugger if they're at the other end of a house.
Has anyone else heard this? Surely you could only advise a customer on this and not force them into any additional work. A periodic report should cover your back. Am I right.

 

[Richard Burns]

If you do a PIR then you must identify that the bonding is absent but do not have to do remedial work.
If you are doing any electrical work, such as changing the consumer Unit, then it is a requirement that the bonding to the main services is up to scratch and this would have to be part of the cost of the job. (very big nuisance if you are just adding a socket).

You cannot force the customer to have the bonding upgraded but also you cannot do the work if the bonding is not in place.

 

[krissiboy]

I can understand after changing the cu that including the added cost of earthing to gas and water. But to add a socket - surely this is a bit extreme and in a way doing yourself out of work as the customer would just laugh and say no thanks. Is there a regs number I can quote to a potential customer on this.

 

[IQ Electrical]

I can understand after changing the cu that including the added cost of earthing to gas and water. But to add a socket - surely this is a bit extreme and in a way doing yourself out of work as the customer would just laugh and say no thanks. Is there a regs number I can quote to a potential customer on this.

Yes, 131.8 !!

Should I ask how much work you've carried out before stumbling across this rather well-known requirement?

 

[Sintra]

Before an addition or alteration can be made to an existing installation it must be ascertained that the earthing and bonding arrangements comply with the current version of BS7671 and any existing equipment including the incoming supply is adequate for the proposed addition or alteration. 131.8

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Reg. No. 1318 requires: the earthing and bonding arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied for the safety of the addition or alteration, shall be adequate.
As such you are required to first determine whether earthing and bonding is necessary for whatever protective measures you are installing, and then determine whether any existing earthing and bonding arrangements are adequate.
It would be very rare that you would install a protective measure that doesn't require earthing to function.
It could well be argued that bonding is not necessarily required for protective measures to function?
To ascertain whether the earthing is adequate, you could either apply the adiabatic equation, or calculate Zs by adding measured Ze to measured R1 + R2 values.
If you determine that either the earthing or bonding is adequate, but does not comply with current Regulations, you should make a note of this on the EIC under comments/observations on existing installation.

 

[krissiboy]

So I dare say millions of properties in our country still have 16mm tails, some that are only single insulated and inadequately earthed. The customers would need to contact their supplier to change this! Is this a free service?
Would I be right in saying that the majority of sparkys in this country would turn a blind eye to this regulation. I havent been doing this long and I must put this down to poor teaching! I don't even think my boss knows that reg. In future I will point this out to him. The majority of our work is now going to be earthing water and gas mains or he may not get any work due to customers saying "thats too dear, I only want a bloody socket moved over there".

Can you not just RCD the work you do eg, a new socket, and make sure the the correct MCB installed, cable sizes/routes all other factors are OK. Test the Zs for that circuit in question,test the RCD. Job Done!

 

[IQ Electrical]

So I dare say millions of properties in our country still have 16mm tails, some that are only single insulated and inadequately earthed. The customers would need to contact their supplier to change this! Is this a free service?
Would I be right in saying that the majority of sparkys in this country would turn a blind eye to this regulation. I havent been doing this long and I must put this down to poor teaching! I don't even think my boss knows that reg. In future I will point this out to him. The majority of our work is now going to be earthing water and gas mains or he may not get any work due to customers saying "thats too dear, I only want a bloody socket moved over there".

Can you not just RCD the work you do eg, a new socket, and make sure the the correct MCB installed, cable sizes/routes all other factors are OK. Test the Zs for that circuit in question,test the RCD. Job Done!

Have a read of this, it's a good guide and answers many questions:

http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/industry/best_practice/BPG6_09.pdf

 

[Deleted member 26818]

So I dare say millions of properties in our country still have 16mm tails, some that are only single insulated and inadequately earthed. The customers would need to contact their supplier to change this! Is this a free service?
Would I be right in saying that the majority of sparkys in this country would turn a blind eye to this regulation. I havent been doing this long and I must put this down to poor teaching! I don't even think my boss knows that reg. In future I will point this out to him. The majority of our work is now going to be earthing water and gas mains or he may not get any work due to customers saying "thats too dear, I only want a bloody socket moved over there".

Can you not just RCD the work you do eg, a new socket, and make sure the the correct MCB installed, cable sizes/routes all other factors are OK. Test the Zs for that circuit in question,test the RCD. Job Done!

The ones who would turn a blind eye to this Regulation are the ones often refered to as cowboys.
It is rare that if there is earthing and bonding present, that it is not adequate. If it is adequate, but not compliant, there is no requirement to upgrade it.
Obviously, if it is not present, then it should be installed, and once installed compliant.
Testing the Zs of a particular circuit will not unless parallel earth paths are eliminated prove that the earthing is adequate, which is why Zs should be calculated from measured ZE and R1 + R2 values.

 

[krissiboy]

Sounds like my employer has a lot to learn. Mmmmmm

I wished I had seen this booklet before.

How many other booklets are out there to help us employees!!!

Are they only issued to the employers?

I'm pleased I can say I'm only starting out. Knowledge comes with asking the right questions and hopefully getting the right answers.. The more questions you ask the more experienced you become. I'm getting all philosophical now.

Time to go me thinks.

Thanks all very much for info.

 

[IQ Electrical]

Sounds like my employer has a lot to learn. Mmmmmm

I wished I had seen this booklet before.

How many other booklets are out there to help us employees!!!

Are they only issued to the employers?

I'm pleased I can say I'm only starting out. Knowledge comes with asking the right questions and hopefully getting the right answers.. The more questions you ask the more experienced you become. I'm getting all philosophical now.

Time to go me thinks.

Thanks all very much for info.

There's an abundance of excellent information just on this site alone, then the Electrical Safety Council has a few Best Practice Guides that every electrician should read:

Best practice guides : Electrical Safety Council

 

[telectrix]

@ krissiboy, as you say, you are just starting out. the advice given so far is spot on. if a client won't pay for the bonding ( not earthing) of gas/water services, then that contravenes 131.8 and you must walk away. but please note the bold above. start as you mean to go on with correct terminology. best of luck, tel.

 

[PC Electrics]

Can't add much else to what's been said about the bonding issue, but would reinforce Tels comment about being sure to use correct terminology. If you ever think you might want to take 2391, be aware that a major causal factor for the high failure rate in this exam is the use of incorrect or outdated terminology.

 

[oxocube]

If you do a PIR then you must identify that the bonding is absent but do not have to do remedial work.
If you are doing any electrical work, such as changing the consumer Unit, then it is a requirement that the bonding to the main services is up to scratch and this would have to be part of the cost of the job. (very big nuisance if you are just adding a socket).

You cannot force the customer to have the bonding upgraded but also you cannot do the work if the bonding is not in place.

100% in agreement, could'nt have put it better.

 

[Octopus]

The REAL issue with this regulation is that its written in good faith, by those with indepth knowledge, in words for those with knowledge, and/or a need to know (maybe not in your case) to use in everyday work.

HOWEVER its not communicated, nor written, in such a way, for the average home owner to understand, nor in a lot of cases realise it actually exists.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Can't add much else to what's been said about the bonding issue, but would reinforce Tels comment about being sure to use correct terminology. If you ever think you might want to take 2391, be aware that a major causal factor for the high failure rate in this exam is the use of incorrect or outdated terminology.

I couldn't agree more.

This is exactly why I failed my 2391.

 

[krissiboy]

Very greatful for all advice given.

There are a lot of questions that we all have about BS7671. On this matter alone have learned and have taken in all what's been said.

I will no doubt have more questions for you all in the very near future.

Thanks.