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Discuss Gender Neutral Confusion.............. in the Electricians Chat - Off Topic Chat area at ElectrciansForums.co.uk.

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  1. Vortigern
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    Vortigern Electrician's Arms

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    Well we here in the UK are in the midst of such things as you mention @Marvo@Marvo. It has been given legal credence and there are moves to remove gender assignment from passports. Clearly people are latching on to this movement of gender disphoria. i.e. being creative regarding ones biological sex. I see that some people describe this as cultural marxism. What underpins society is gender role assignment based on obvious biological facts which in turn form the family unit. Remove this and you undermine some of the most important underpinning tenets of a society. Which is after all is the stated aim of cultural marxism. Most disturbingly when legal acts are passed which ratify and amplify this we can be sure our government has embraced the same aims.
    Some people genuinely resent and reject being pigeon holed into such a simple and obvious classification. This is an internal process which allows people to be gender fluid as it is named. And indeed why should anyone be pigeon holed? However it to my mind shows they have bought into a lie, maybe a pretty lie but lie nonetheless. Such mental processes which brook no debate or questioning presage an ominous totalitarianism, the kind of thing I feel quite allergic to.
    This flies in the face of what might be called common sense. i.e. if you have a penis you are a male, if you have a vagina you are a female yes? Well...apparently no. So who will you believe the person saying they are neither either or both, or your own eyes. You may be aware of same sex marriage being legalised fairly extensively. Clearly "normal" relations and obvious sexual determinations are being stood on their head and defy logic.
    I feel somewhat encouraged that some women now are back-tracking on feminism and deciding maybe being career rich and relationship poor are not good life choices. And that maybe men should be men and women should be women, who knows eh?
    I have been most disturbed to find my grandchildren (boys, male)coming home from school talking of wanting to be a female as they have decided that today as a result of classroom teaching. With that and other matters I decided to withdraw them from school and home educate them. While others may debate the above I do not.
    I do feel sorry for S.A. if that is looming on your agenda. I suggest as others here have you take vigorous legal advice regarding how you will deal with this as it grows. Not only for applicants but also for people who are employed with you and sufficiently immersed in cultural marxism as to cause you great distress when you say or do the wrong thing. Many have been sacrificed here on the altar of political correctness (read cultural marxism)
     
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  2. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

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    I can't see why it can't be asked at interview, as consensus here and Google search doesn't actually reveal what it is. The applicant has bought it to the attention of the prospective employer, who must know whether it might have an impact in terms of the employment
    You lost me after you said 'Well' :)
     
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  3. Vortigern
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    Vortigern Electrician's Arms

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    Yeh s'pose that was a bit of a joycean stream of consciousness without reference. Sorry about that will try not to do it again, can't promise tho':cool:
     
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  4. Leader
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    Leader Electrician's Arms

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    These are not matters of logic, neither are they a fashion statement. Absolutely people should be able to marry the person they fall in love with.
     
  5. mickfred
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    mickfred Regular EF Member

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    I really like leader .I disagree with some of what you say but I like that you take the unpopular view on a male dominated site where it would be easier to make a crude joke to get a laugh . If 10 years ago someone would have brought up a issue like this up I would have a lot more time for it, but now days the genuine case get mixed up with the poses.
     
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  6. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

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    personally i think it's all a load of Bollox ( or lack of ). who will know?
     
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  7. SparkyChick
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    SparkyChick Making a banana smoothy for my fave gorilla Electrician's Arms

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    I've thought long and hard about posting this, but since so far it's all men who have commented, I'll throw in this chick's view on the matter and I'm sure I'm going to cop some flack for it because for this particular subject I am completely anti.

    For starters, the way to avoid any possible problems (and I think putting this on a CV as opposed to ones biological sex indicates it is an issue for this individual which means at some point in the future it could become an issue for you) is to simply dismiss the CV and file it under B.1.N. I would. I won't even entertain the idea of employing someone for whom this fad is important regardless of qualifications. The legal protection being afforded these individuals is growing and thus it is opening a whole new way in which you could get screwed over as an employer. I certainly wouldn't enquire about it at interview as if they are then unsuccessful, it could be used as leverage against you.

    I whole heartedly agree with @Rpa07@Rpa07 and @Vortigern@Vortigern .

    There is no doubt this is a trend, nothing more. If you look back on it, it's quite clear it started on the internet (no surprise there, most likely on Tumblr - a site which appears to have great influence over the kids of today), but these days it's being pushed by main stream media, schools and universities and is gaining serious legal traction in various countries. We've already had guidance here telling NHS maternity staff not to refer to expectant mothers as MOTHERS... FFS. Have womb, get pregnant, give birth, are mother... period!

    There is no biological basis for it as about 99.7% (or something of that magnitude) of human beings fall into the sex binary of male or female, and for the most part male = penis, female = vagina. The people who don't comply with that are transgendered or intersex (both of which are medical conditions, the sufferers of which deserve our compassion and understanding). But there in lies one of the key issues. The people using this are confusing biological sex with gender identity/personality and seem to be pushing back against being pigeon holed by their sex, which of course isn't an issue these days... being female doesn't mean you stay at home dropping sprogs playing housewife to your hubby (thank god!), but that fact appears lost on a lot of these people.

    As I see it there are a few potential reasons why someone may choose to label themselves in this way. 1) Victim status - Labelling yourself as non-binary, is increasingly granting you protection under legislation designed to protect the truly transgendered individuals. Label yourself as non-binary and you can suddenly blame anyone but yourself for things that have gone wrong in your life (not being hired, being fired, making bad decisions). 2) Feeling special - Go look at the on-line profiles of some of these clowns... this is the only thing some of them have to say about themselves... how sad and shallow. 3) Self Acceptance - Remember this started in America, a deeply religious country with some way out there values and pressures regarding gender roles etc. I think it may be a way for kids who don't conform to excuse their lack of conformity. Now I think that's the wrong way to handle it, what should happen is parents should be telling their kids it's OK to be you, but I suspect that doesn't happen.

    And to add to the confusion, this also ties up to the transspecies movement and other such BS. For those unfamiliar with that term... today I'm a cat (curiosity is my name as I'm doing an EICR on a small office building), yesterday I was a fish (gliding through my repair jobs like a fish glides through water). Sound stupid? It's a thing!

    I've seen conversations start with openings like this "Hi I'm Mike, I identify as moonkin. I'm non-binary and my preferred pronouns are she and her". Is that how you want to be opening conversations? Some parts of the states have legislation that requires you to use Mikes pronouns... even though Mike is 6'4" 21st with a huge great bushy beard. She? Is that the kind of craziness you want?

    And lets be clear about this... the agenda at the moment is for gender neutral everything. These labels are self defined, so anyone at any time could say "Hey, I'm female" and waltz into the girls bathrooms in public spaces. Anyone with a young daughter... is that what you want? People being able to self define as something with no medical diagnosis, something which grants them access to somewhere they wouldn't ordinarily be allowed to go. I certainly don't want that.

    The funniest thing about this is that they often make statements about how the doctor abused them when they were born by assigning their gender by looking between their legs. As I said above, biological sex... penis = man, vagina = woman. They claim it's abuse because it's dictating their role in society. Thankfully we live in enlightened times... it doesn't matter male/female you can pretty much be and do anything you like, you're in control of what becomes of your life, what's between your legs has very little impact these days.

    It should not be pushed as an agenda by the main stream media, it should not be taught in schools (growing up is confusing enough as it is, so lets kids be kids and don't add to their questioning) and it should not be afforded the same legal protection as being transgendered.

    And that's my little rant on the subject. I'm sure some of you will think I'm a hate filled witch. Not hate, I'm just tired of society being dismantled piece by piece and this is another example of it. Years ago, you were male/female and straight/gay/bi. 6 possibilities. Why do we need more than that? Anything else is character/personality and should not be labelled because it's usually unique to the individual and should not grant any form of protection/legal status.
     
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  8. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

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    Better than Vortigern, got as far as thought. Only joking :)
     
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  9. Leader
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    Leader Electrician's Arms

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    SC I agree with some of what you say, do some people take things too far and use their identity as some kind of victims status? Yes, most definitely. Whether they be gay, black, whatever - I have encountered people like this. Should we assume therefore that all gay people are like this? No. I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt rather that judging them before I've even met them. And that, I think, is the crux of the matter. Judge everyone on their own merit.
     
  10. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

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    The human mind is a complex thing. Who can say this persons feelings about themselves, has been influenced by society/media. It just could be the way they feel, who are we to say otherwise. The way we conceive things changes over time, we evolve.

    Just over 60 years ago a guy committed suicide after being found guilty of gross indecency in private. Homosexuality was decriminalised some ten years later in the UK, in 1967. Societies attitudes towards homosexuality have change completely in recent years, which was seen as an illness, that could be cured. What should are attitudes to gender neutral peoples be like?

    The guy in question, was Alan Turing, attributed with saving millions of lives in WWII and shortening the war. Yet he's sentence for his 'crime' was chemical castration, as 'treatment' for his illness.

    Hope you get past 'The' Vortigern & Sparkychick :)
     
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  11. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

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    agree 100% with Sparkychick. Alan Turin is not relevant. he was homosexual, which is an actual "condition", and recognised as such. being nether male ot female ( except in extremely rare cases of hermaphrodites) is not possible.
    As for employing such a person as in the OP, which staff toilets wolt it use, or would you have to build a gender neutral set of bogs for it?
     
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  12. Vortigern
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    Vortigern Electrician's Arms

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    Oh oh better add @telectrix@telectrix to that list:)
     
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  13. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

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    :(:(:(:(
     
  14. Vortigern
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    Vortigern Electrician's Arms

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    Why so glum @telectrix@telectrix its a badge of honour to have common sense.
     
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  15. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

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    glum for coz. i didn't know what he was referring to. DOH.
     
  16. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

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    The reference towards homosexuality was to demonstrate how our attitudes can change over time. Peoples are discriminated against, for various reasons, not just because of e.g. sexuality or race.

    Some are suggesting this person should not be considered for an interview, just because he or she is gender neutral. You can dress that up as much as you want, but that is discrimination.
     
  17. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

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    but what would you be discriminating against? the "person" is stated to be neutral. you can't discriminate against something that does not exist.
     
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  18. sam400
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    sam400 Regular EF Member

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    There either trying to jump on this ridiculous gender neutral band wagon or there a tranny,
    Either way the CV would be going in the bin if it was me.
     
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  19. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

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    could always advise the "gender neutral" applicant to apply for work in Thailand as a ladyboy.
     
  20. Vortigern
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    Vortigern Electrician's Arms

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    Discrimination, hmmm a very important critical faculty. It is correct to discriminate in order to make the correct decision. The fact that the state has passed a law not allowing you to does not mean therefore the law is correct and discrimination now becomes a dirty word. It merely means the law is an Ass has been said by a then Q.C. I would only add to that -hole.
     
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  21. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

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    let me have a few minutes to consult with Judge Rinder.
     
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  22. Vortigern
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    Vortigern Electrician's Arms

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    Me neither
     
  23. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

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    If there're breathing, they exist.
     
  24. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

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    I suppose that's okay until you suffer at the hands of discrimination.

    Being gingered haired and having freckles, doesn't fit snuggle within the 9 protected characteristics of the Equality Act, but a carrot top would feel a bit pee'd he did not get the job 'cos he's a ginge.

    I wonder what our South African OP has to report. :)
     
  25. Vortigern
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    Vortigern Electrician's Arms

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    Just to be clear discrimination as a legal term proscribes how we may judge something. The state and legislature is ultra vires when it tells us what we may or may not like and how we express that like or dislike. It is NOT a function of the state to tell anyone how or what to think, and the people who line up and obey these laws are the orwellian brain dead zombies that really need to wake up.
     
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  26. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

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    corrected that for you Vorti.
     
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  27. SWD
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    SWD Gender neutral Electrician's Arms

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  28. SWD
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    SWD Gender neutral Electrician's Arms

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    Well said, but as we see again and again its the minority that seems to control the majority.
     
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  29. SWD
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    SWD Gender neutral Electrician's Arms

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    Alan Turing was helped by Polish mathematicians who had already broken the code and they taught him how to build the electro mechanical devices, during the war the Enigma codes became more complex and then Turing built his computer, the student learns from his teacher.
     
  30. Leader
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    Leader Electrician's Arms

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  31. SWD
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    SWD Gender neutral Electrician's Arms

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    Who on this thread would marry their Knipex tool set?
     
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  32. SWD
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    SWD Gender neutral Electrician's Arms

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    Hun, what car do you drive...........?
     
  33. Leader
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    Leader Electrician's Arms

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    A Range Rover darling
     
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  34. Leader
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    Leader Electrician's Arms

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    And it's very sexy
     
  35. SWD
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    SWD Gender neutral Electrician's Arms

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    Jesus like pulling the fat bird on a night out......
     
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  36. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

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    IMO, if a person is "gender neutral" he/she/it either is born with a penis and a vagina, or neither of these. anyone who does not fall into one of the above and calls themselves gender neutral is living in cloud cuckoo land and should be certified and , if necessary, confined to an institution (with gender neutral staff, of course).
     
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  37. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

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    what's wrong with fat birds? more to get hold of.
     
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  38. SWD
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    SWD Gender neutral Electrician's Arms

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    Whatever turns you on, I prefer slim birds more room in the bed for me and they don't eat much when you take them out so leaves me more money to spend on cars and Knipex tools.

    I think I bumped in to your other half the other day, I say bumped but I was flattened.......

    Screen Shot 2017-09-09 at 16.27.26.jpg
     
  39. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

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    They did, but he & others secured a different method to the Polish, which would not be effected by changes made by the Germans, which they eventually did do.
     
  40. Marvo
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    Marvo GMES....You absolute beauty. YOU ROCK DUDE!!!! Staff Member

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    Well I've just read all the responses and I'm greatful that so many of them are well considered and informative.

    A couple of things that I noticed are firstly there's a definate lack of consensus on nearly all the issues discussed. I'm not sure what this says or means, maybe it's something that's seen differently by younger and older people or male and female people or even politically aware and unaware people. The lack of consensus isn't just on this forum, it seems to be the case on the internet in general. The confusion for me is it seems to be something that can't be described clearly without reverting to the use of many other terms that also seem to lack clear definition and often also suffer from the same lack of consensus regarding their exact meaning. So...regarding exactly what 'gender neutral' is, why someone might feel the need to declare it and how you'd go about enforcing gender neutrality in everyday life I'm still not 100% clear but it's obviously something that's a big issue in this particular guys life.

    It sounds to me like declaring it with such priority to others would be similar to taking exception to a form that enquires your religion and gives tick boxes for Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Other and None and someone going into a rant on how they're agnostic and definately not athiest.....like it should make a difference to anyone else other than themselves.
     
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  41. Marvo
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    Marvo GMES....You absolute beauty. YOU ROCK DUDE!!!! Staff Member

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    Just for info, the guy isn't likely to make an interview, there are several better qualified and more experience candidates.
     
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  42. Wilko
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    Wilko Electrician's Arms

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    Mine is a too bitey for that kind of relationship. Just one cutting remark after another. But I do see the attraction ...
     
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  43. SparkyChick
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    SparkyChick Making a banana smoothy for my fave gorilla Electrician's Arms

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    Absolutely, we should not judge the whole on the actions of a few, but gender identity (which these labels relate to) is nothing to do with sexuality. Claiming to be gender neutral says nothing about whether this person is gay/straight/bi.

    It's well established that homosexuality is, like being truly transgendered, a biological facet of the individual. A facet they have no control over. Therefore to discriminate against them for being gay or truly transgendered would be wrong.

    As an individual, I don't really care what people get up to in the bedroom and who they choose to get up to it with. As a potential employer I care about it even less, it's none of my business as realistically, that aspect of a person should have little to no impact on my business and therefore I wouldn't expect to see a statement on someones CV to the effect of "Sexuality: Gay". If I did I'd probably think "agenda" and file the CV in the bin.

    But we aren't talking about biology here, we're talking about arbitrary labels that people can assign to themselves on a whim, by themselves with no guidance or say so from a medical professional qualified to make that judgement... labels that, due to the politically correct agenda of mainstream media and politicians, grant those individuals protection that they would not ordinarily be afforded. Protection that could have an impact on me and my business.

    So, as with sexuality, someone's gender identity is of no interest to me as an employer as it should not impact the business in anyway (with one exception... if that person is public facing where how they present could impact the business in a negative way). The fact they've put this on their CV suggests they have an agenda and unfortunately, asking about it at interview and then rejecting their application puts you in an awkward position, so in my opinion the most sensible thing to do is reject the application before it gets to that stage.

    Absolutely, and I think that's a very important point... being gender neutral is in the mind, it's an expression of character, or personality, of being who you want to be. It's not a characteristic of one's biology like sex or sexuality.

    If there was any medical evidence to suggest it is anything more than arbitrary self assigned labels, then I would treat them in the same way as I treat everyone else. Unfortunately, the first instances of these terms appear to stem from certain social media platforms not medical journals and as yet I don't believe there is any medical evidence to back them up.

    If you've never seen the full list of 57 genders (or whatever it is), check it out (Genderfluid Support - http://genderfluidsupport.tumblr.com/gender) and then tell me this isn't just a stupid fad.

    Whilst it may seem far fetched, this could be an issue and I see a number of possible ways this would play out. In most cases, I could see a strong case for "No, don't be bloody daft" but under a certain set of conditions I could see a strong case for "Yes, you will build them their own toilet or face the wrath of anti-discrimination laws", and those conditions begin with the fact they've stated this on their CV, because it was there at the point of hiring, they haven't hidden the fact and therefore they can claim you as an employer were aware of their needs/rights when you hired them.

    I'm suggesting I personally wouldn't consider them for interview because by making a thing out of it and explicitly stating it on their CV it makes me think they have a politically correct agenda that would result in trouble for me. And yes, that is me using discrimination to make what I believe would be the right choice for my business, as is my right as a potential employer.

    Again, as with sexuality, having ginger hair and/or freckles is biology and I would agree, discriminating on the basis of looks is wrong, except if those looks will be public facing... then I should have the right to choose who will represent my company. My business model might rely on all public facing staff having blonde hair, or I might not want a tattooed youth with 15" wheel rims stuck through his ear lobes to be the first person someone sees when they walk into the reception area of my office. That's my choice, it's my brand... unfortunately if you make that kind of decision, you run the risk of being had for discriminating which is plainly wrong.

    Yes, it is, because they are the most vocal and cause the most trouble, and also because anyone that speaks out against their agenda is branded as a hater, sometimes being publicly doxed, abused and shamed for daring to have a different opinion to these people.

    It's the same sort of situation that exists in the UK with regards to say the Muslim rape gangs (amongst other things). People dare not speak out because they fear the consequences.

    I totally agree, people can do and be whatever they want to be... on their time, but at work they should be prepared to conform to societal standards and rules and those of the company, but I think this is part of the problem... we're breeding a generation of people who want their own way all of the time and therefore they believe they should be allowed to dress and behave however they want, whenever they want... and the kicker is, laws are changing and it is becoming increasingly difficult for employers to ignore what 10 years ago would have been considered unreasonable staff demands.

    By using these labels, which have hijacked the term transgendered, these people can claim you're discriminating against them on the basis they are "transgendered" (personally I prefer the term I've seen used on-line quite a bit - transtrender) which is a protected status in most Western equality legislation and hey presto they have you over a barrel. Which is why if sexuality and/or gender identity is important enough to make it onto a CV, I think agenda, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and well... I'm not willing to take that risk.
     
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  44. GlenTavener
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    GlenTavener Active EF Member

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    Personally I find it inappropriate to make statements such as gender neutral in an application, what point is it intended to serve? It suggests either a political motive by forcing this into the working arena or as someone has said an expression that suggests they are a victim and therefore worthy of preferential consideration. There is far too much thrusting of peoples personal inclinations these days, they really are of little interest to people other than family and friends. No I am not bigoted in any way, over 70 now and have batted for the other side, as used to be said, all my life way before the law changed. I and my partner behaved just like everyone else, private was private it was never discussed. However, people did realise and when in 2000 there was a petrol crisis and my partner was seriously ill in hospital before he eventually died, a builder I worked with then phoned to say he and his lads had emptied their lawn mowers of petrol and left it in a jerry can so I could go to Bristol without worrying about petrol. My experience is that most people are decent, jokes are usually just jokes without any malice. Now people just seem to want attention but honestly most of us really have no hangups anyway unless you become overly annoying like maybe X factor.
     
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  45. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

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    If being gender neutral is in the mind, then there's no difference with that and believing in a God. Yet religion, belief or lack of religion/belief is one of the protected characteristics.

    Of course there is an occupational requirement for a particular person or type of person, which would otherwise disproportionally affect your business, you carry out positive discrimination.

    Years ago, air stewardess, were as in the name all female of a certain 'type'. Not the case nowadays; do you recall the Virgin Airways retro tv advert, 'featuring crowds ogling its glitzy female cabin crew', but the pilots were all men. The ASA ruled it was not sexist, but I can't seem to find the video now?
     
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