NICEIC Certification Scheme Help interpreting NICEIC report

[wouldlikeacuppa]

(Hi, first post, not an electrician, just looking for advice, I hope thats allowed but mods please let me know if it isn't)

Looking to buy a place and our surveyor recommended we get the electrics checked. So the electrician has sent us his NICEIC test report. The summary is:

"No earth continuity on upstairs lighting circuits. Borrowed neutral on lighting circuits. No mains service bond to water/LPG at point of entrance to building"

He's rated these three things as "C2" which seems to mean "might not be immediate risk but urgenct action needed to remove potential danger"

I understand that these things are problems but how big or unusual a problem are they? For example, would this sort of stuff be common in older properties due to changing regulations or is this some seriously dodgy wiring by anyone's standards?

(Would be useful to get a handle on this so we can negotiate with seller)

Many thanks

 

[Englishman]

I would get them done before you buy.

 

[wouldlikeacuppa]

I would get them done before you buy.

Ok, thanks. Is this sort of thing normal for older properties or is this a sign of cowboy electrics?

 

[Andy78]

Your first point of reference should be the electrician who undertook the inspection. He should explain fully any issues and coded observations contained within the report.

He would be best placed to estimate the cost and scale of any remedial works associated with providing an installation with no C2 issues, that you can use in any negotiation.

 

[Andy78]

Ok, thanks. Is this sort of thing normal for older properties or is this a sign of cowboy electrics?

All these issues are commonly found in older properties.

No CPC on the lighting... this could indicate a pre 1966 installation with no earth installed. It could also indicate a newer installation with a fault on the earth path. The risk from this situation increases if metal accessories are in use.

Borrowed neutrals are very common in older installs.

Lack of bonding is also not uncommon to find.

 

[Flanders]

Its probable not been install by cowboys sounds more like it due to the age of the installation as said get the electrician who did the the report to do you a quote to rectify the code 2 observations you can use this as a bartering tool when buying the house

 

[davesparks]

A lack of earth continuity is possibly a sign that a diyer may have changed some light fittings or added an extra light etc.
Borrowed neutrals present a significant danger to anyone working on the circuits affected, it has never been permitted in the regulations as far as I know.
Main bonding is essential to ensure that you are protected from receiving electric shocks of a fault occurs on any circuit or on the suppliers network.

 

[wouldlikeacuppa]

Thanks chaps this is really useful context. We will talk to the electrician about a quote.

Further down the report also says:
"Earth fault loop impedance value greater than that required for operation of the protective device within the time prescribed in the version of BS 7671/IET Wiring Regulations current at the time of installation"

Again: Is this a common problem with older properties?

 

[Flanders]

No you don't normal get High earth loop readings in houses , if this is the case it will also need correcting

 

[Pete999]

(Hi, first post, not an electrician, just looking for advice, I hope thats allowed but mods please let me know if it isn't)

Looking to buy a place and our surveyor recommended we get the electrics checked. So the electrician has sent us his NICEIC test report. The summary is:

"No earth continuity on upstairs lighting circuits. Borrowed neutral on lighting circuits. No mains service bond to water/LPG at point of entrance to building"

He's rated these three things as "C2" which seems to mean "might not be immediate risk but urgenct action needed to remove potential danger"

I understand that these things are problems but how big or unusual a problem are they? For example, would this sort of stuff be common in older properties due to changing regulations or is this some seriously dodgy wiring by anyone's standards?

(Would be useful to get a handle on this so we can negotiate with seller)

Many thanks

Hi Dealing with this type of problem remotely can be a bit tricky, but from your description it seems that lighting circuit may not have a cpc (Circuit Protective Conductor, earth wire to the layman)

The second issue "no bonding the the Gas and Water basically means that when the property was wired the rules did not require this to be done, not a difficult job if you have removable flooring.

As others have said get the Electrician who did the report back and ask for a price / estimate for remedial works and an explanation of the coding he has given you.

 

[Englishman]

Ok, thanks. Is this sort of thing normal for older properties or is this a sign of cowboy electrics?

I apologise for the short comment, I was barely able to breathe and suffering from sever chest pains at the time so that was all I could muster. Others have explained it more than well enough while I've been recovering though.

 

[uksparks]

I would get them done before you buy.

If I was the home owner I'd tell you to sling your hook, sold as seen. You do t buy a car and say I want to modify it so you pay for the mods before I part with my cash.

i had a similar issue lately with someone. They are selling their house and the people buying it said their mortgage company won't issue it unless the fuse box is upgraded and various other stuff.

i said why are you paying out for modifications to your house to satisfy them? They insisted it was st the sellers cost. They did get it done by another electrician but if it was me I'd say look, this is the house take it or leave it.

 

[Englishman]

If I was the home owner I'd tell you to sling your hook, sold as seen. You do t buy a car and say I want to modify it so you pay for the mods before I part with my cash.

i had a similar issue lately with someone. They are selling their house and the people buying it said their mortgage company won't issue it unless the fuse box is upgraded and various other stuff.

i said why are you paying out for modifications to your house to satisfy them? They insisted it was st the sellers cost. They did get it done by another electrician but if it was me I'd say look, this is the house take it or leave it.

Well I think that if you either knew what you were doing, or had a mechanic look over the car before you bought it, and some strange things were noticed that needed further inspection as they could affect safety, then you'd be right to walk away.

Stupid response in all honesty, why the hell would you buy a house where the electrics were potentially dangerous, and you'd need to spend money to put it right, without negotiating a discount from the seller.

 

[Midwest]

If I was the home owner I'd tell you to sling your hook, sold as seen. You do t buy a car and say I want to modify it so you pay for the mods before I part with my cash.

i had a similar issue lately with someone. They are selling their house and the people buying it said their mortgage company won't issue it unless the fuse box is upgraded and various other stuff.

i said why are you paying out for modifications to your house to satisfy them? They insisted it was st the sellers cost. They did get it done by another electrician but if it was me I'd say look, this is the house take it or leave it.

No be it could be reflective in the price of the property, like avocado bathroom suite or wood chip wallpaper in every room. Its always been a buyers market. If the vendor doesn't like the offer, they can tell em to shove it, depends how desperate you are to sell.

 

[Blademan_98]

This has happened to a work colleague recently.
The buyer has said fix it or we don't buy it.
He is desperate to sell so is getting it fixed.

Cheers
B

 

[Octopus]

Lack of earth continuity could be lack of earth in cable. In the schedule of test results does it show the cpc size for the lighting circuit?

 

[R G]

As already said the best person to get an idea of cost of remedial works is the person thats carried out the EICR , use that in negotiation with the owner of the property , You have made the right choice in having this done before buying , I think we have all seen the results of someone buying without having this done , if you are not sure about the cost of the remedial work and would like other quotes then do so if and when you have purchased the property , but use this initial quote to negotiate with , if its an older property then these are the sort of issues you mention that are quite common .....

If you are unsure of the interpretation of an y items mention then the quotation along with further information should clear this up.

Be prepared for the owner also to start getting quotes too though..

 

[The Ghost]

A borrowed neutral is dangerous as you could isolate the lighting circuit by the main fuse/mcb believing it to be safe/dead whereas it could still be live and you could be electrocuted. Clearly there are earthing problems however from what you say the remedial work should not really be that expensive. I work on testing rectification commercially and most earthing problems are loose connections/poor termination methods which are pretty simple to fix.

 

[Englishman]

Impossible to say that it "should not be that expensive" from what has been written, but the I suppose that depends on whether you want to bring it up to standards or just ensure a Satisfactory result. The possibility that the lighting circuits are not earthed for example. Also, how close the bonding points are.

 

[sparksburnout]

"Borrowed neutrals present a significant danger to anyone working on the circuits affected, it has never been permitted in the regulations as far as I know." Always puzzles me this one, to who exactly does it pose a danger? This situation with borrowed neutrals is viewed as though it is an isolated incident that should be treated as some kind of potential disaster that should be sorted out as a matter of urgency. It is not a C2. There are hundreds of thousands of houses that have borrowed neutrals on the hall/landing lights, that's how they were installed years ago, to save £££'s. To fix most of them would entail large scale work and probably significant re-decorating, which in a lot of instances is impractical. I have come across dozens of these situations in dwellings that have had them for donkey's years and they have never resulted in injury or death as far as I am aware, any "electrician" who is working on lighting circuits (of any description) should be aware that they are possibly the greatest source of danger in a domestic environment and act accordingly, and anyone else should not be working on them at all. Its another case or real world verses red specs world.