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Discuss How to check if a fuse feeds a ring final or 2 radial circuit in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectrciansForums.co.uk.

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  1. 247 handyman
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    247 handyman Active EF Member

    Location:
    Tameside
    Hi guys. I need to check if I have a ring or 2 radial running from a fuse. I have an old wylex fuse box in which someone has put a blue 15amp fuse in a red 30amp carrier.
    If I disconnect the 2 cables and check for continuity of the 2 lines then the 2 neutrals will this tell me if I have a ring or am I missing something ?

    Thanks in advance guys
     
  2. kingeri
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    kingeri Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    It's not that simple mate, checking for continuity in that way will only prove that the two legs are interconnected at some point. They could be joined half way along but not be a ring. There is a specific test for this, but it is not something a none-spark should really be doing. I assume you are not a spark, judging by the question. Do you have an MFT?
     
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  3. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Agree with above and you show you have no electrical qualifications. It would be a routine test for an electrician then you can fit the correct fuse and shield.
     
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  4. 247 handyman
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    247 handyman Active EF Member

    Location:
    Tameside
    Thanks for the reply.
    Your right pal I'm not a spark but I'm not a numpty either if you know what I mean. Yes I do have a multi meter. In your opinion is it something I can do with the help of good people like yourself ?
    For reference this is not for a job but just to help my pensioner in laws out as it appears someone has, like I said, put a 15a fuse into a 30a carrier. I just want to sort it for them so they don't lose all sockets as they currently have done 4 times in the last 3 weeks.
    Thanks for any constructive advice I really do appreciate it.
     
  5. kingeri
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    kingeri Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    To verify if it is a ring, you need to access every socket outlet on the circuit in turn (you will likely have to unscrew them all), after making temporary connections in the CU. You also need to know how to interpret the results obtained from your 'multi meter'.
     
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  6. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    You really need a continuity tester and whilst I understand wanting to help the in laws the circuit needs correct testing and it would be difficult to give instructions to a non qualified person without the correct meter.
     
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  7. 247 handyman
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    247 handyman Active EF Member

    Location:
    Tameside
    Is this the test of resistance
    L to L
    N to N
    E to E
    Then cross connect L1 to L2 etc and check at the sockets
    You tube is great for instruction videos
     
  8. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

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  9. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    Why bother coming here then, when you think you can trust You Tube?
     
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  10. 247 handyman
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    247 handyman Active EF Member

    Location:
    Tameside
    For advice as to suitability of the test. I rather hear from someone who does the job than a teacher who may have all the gear and no idea. Their is no substitute for real life experience
     
  11. kingeri
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    kingeri Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    ....of which you have absolutely none in this instance.
     
  12. 247 handyman
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    247 handyman Active EF Member

    Location:
    Tameside
    Thanks for your reply
    If I follow this would this give me the knowledge that it is indeed a ring final so I can put a 30a fuse in the red carrier ❓❓
     
  13. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

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    Location:
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    Just trying to show the OP the complexity, of a RFC test and the need for the correct equipment, a multimeter is no good for this test, not something for what is a DIYer or in this case a Handy man, who in all honesty shouldn't be fluffing around with something he has very limited knowledge, these videos are very informative for trainees etc, absolutely not to be used by non sparkies
     
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  14. 247 handyman
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    247 handyman Active EF Member

    Location:
    Tameside
    Thanks guys for the advice and constructive criticism. I guess they will just have to wait a bit longer for the brother in laws electrician to turn up. They've already waited 3 weeks as he's busy.

    Thanks again guys
     
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  15. 247 handyman
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    247 handyman Active EF Member

    Location:
    Tameside
    Correct which is why I asked the professionals who do have the experience for advice which I have duly taken.

    Thanks again guys
     
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  16. kingeri
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    kingeri Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Great news that you've made the right decision mate!
     
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  17. 247 handyman
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    247 handyman Active EF Member

    Location:
    Tameside
    Yeah like I said I was just trying to help. I had to talk my brother in law out of just changing the fuse without getting it tested.
     
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  18. kingeri
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    kingeri Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    That was very wise. You seem like a chap with lots of common sense! :)
     
  19. Pat H
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    Pat H Don't ask, get an Electrician in.

    Location:
    Ware Herts
    Business Name:
    Sparks of Intelligence
    For clarity most multimeters don't offer a low enough continuity reading. To know the arrangement of the wiring we need to measure to fractions of an ohm reliably. Based on the readings we can then calculate the location of each point in the circuit based on the resistance. Most general millimetres just don't offer a low enough or consistent enough reading.

    Sorry I can't offer more help and as you say there is a lot of information on google and you tube. Some very helpful people post detailed information on testing and procedures on the understanding the viewers are adults and able to judge what they are capable of or not but that its better they know than to not tell.
    That doesn't seem to be the "style" of this forum where qualified experienced people can get help otherwise you will be referred to an electrician.
     
  20. HandySparks
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    HandySparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Hampshire
    Business Name:
    Neish Electrical Services
    I was thinking about this recently. I don't think that the cross-connection method is particularly reliable for checking the configuration of a ring circuit where you have, for example a very short spur with more than one socket, where the additional resistance produced is minimal.

    I came up with the following as a method that doesn't rely on detecting small changes in resistance:

    Identify all the sockets and other accessories on the circuit.
    Disconnect both ends of the line at the board and connect a resistance meter or a continuity tester across the ends.
    At each accessory, disconnect the line and check that continuity at the board is lost. Then re-connect.
    If breaking the connection at every accessory also breaks the ring, as indicated at the board, then you have a single, complete ring with no spurs and no cross connection.
    Repeat for neutral and cpc if thought necessary (depending on wiring method).

    Obviously measure ring continuity, IR, Zs, etc. as usual.

    Thoughts?
     
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  21. Des 56
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    Des 56 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Gliese 581C
    A couple of thoughts of mine Handysparks

    Good thinking and I seem to agree with the outcome that ring continuity would be assured,but it also seems to entail major disruption at every socket, having to disconnect then test remotely at the dist board for each item and do so 3 times per socket,it would seem to be one very time consuming exercise

    The main weakness I see is that the test is also a test of polarity and although the tester is likely to reconnect the items correctly,bad things do sometimes occur and this test would mean it is then down to a plug in jobbie or reliance on not getting it wrong ever
     
  22. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    Well you obviou
    Pete never linked up your post with OP's response, so no offence meant. :)
     
  23. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

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    None taken Mate
     
  24. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    Coolio :)
     
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  25. darkwood
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    darkwood It's all about Gmes Staff Member Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    Another point I didn't see raised is if he in fact managed to get test results there is the issue of knowing how to interpret them, understanding what they mean and when action needs to be taken, a high ohms reading end to end may be dealt with differently by a professional as oppose to a DIYer, just because it shows a closed loop doesn't mean its safe to energise.
     
  26. kingeri
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    kingeri Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    I touched on it near the beginning:

     
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  27. darkwood
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    darkwood It's all about Gmes Staff Member Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    So you did @kinger, my apologies... I just skimmed the answers and missed your note on the matter :)
     
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  28. Vortigern
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    Vortigern Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    England
    Business Name:
    F.H. Electrical
    I think I might be more concerned as to why suddenly are there fuses going so regularly, what is going on with the sockets if they did not do this before. You might find a temporary answer if you knew what they are plugging in when the fuse goes and encourage them not to. What do you think? At least until it can be investigated more thoroughly. Might be faulty equipment or overload from too many things on at the same time.
     
  29. HandySparks
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    HandySparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Hampshire
    Business Name:
    Neish Electrical Services
    True. Certainly more disruptive that the conventional 'figure of eight' test.
    I was really trying to think of a guaranteed way of proving a ring, as I often find that contact resistance makes for uncertain readings.
     
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  30. mydigitalhome
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    mydigitalhome Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Norfolk
    Nice to see Kris Kitcher again well known for his books and lecturing at Uni. in YouTube video
     
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  31. 247 handyman
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    247 handyman Active EF Member

    Location:
    Tameside
    In my opinion they recently had a boiler fitted the old system was obviously removed. Some how they blew the 30a fuse so swapped the now redundant 15a fuse into the 30a carrier. When the high draw loads from the kitchen started to blow the 15a fuse as all the house sockets are on 1 fuse.
     
  32. Vortigern
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    Vortigern Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    England
    Business Name:
    F.H. Electrical
    I certainly would be calling them back to rectify that as they have, by what you say, underfused the existing circuit and should be obliged to rectify it.
     
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  33. 247 handyman
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    247 handyman Active EF Member

    Location:
    Tameside
    Problem is we have no proof it just looks to be something along those lines. All the carriers had fused in but now there is a 30A fuse missing and a 15A in the red carrier and an empty 15A slot.
     
  34. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

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    Hasn't the boiler got a fused spur feeding it with an appropriate size cartridge fuse fitted?
     
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  35. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    OP, assuming your in-laws house is a typical small pensioners property, I'm wondering why the 15a fuse is blowing? Again assuming its going after a period of time? What have your in-laws plugged into their sockets,any electric fires. Most modern appliances draw moderate amounts of load. Or does the fuse blow suddenly, e.g. when the boiler system is turned on?
     
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  36. 247 handyman
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    247 handyman Active EF Member

    Location:
    Tameside
    No pal it's quite large. Was a typical council house which they bought and extended then had a loft conversion. Going from 3 bed to 6. Big family but only 2 "kids" left at home. Usually seems to be in the morning with washer dryer heater hair straighteners at all running.
    Never had a problem with everyone at home, it only started with the cold weather the other week. There is only 1 circuit for all the sockets including the kitchen.
    I'll say again I'm totally convinced someone has changed the fuse but I won't let them change it back without it being tested.
     
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  37. 247 handyman
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    247 handyman Active EF Member

    Location:
    Tameside
    No pal. The boiler is just plugged into a normal socket.
     
  38. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

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    Who installed the boiler?
     
  39. 247 handyman
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    247 handyman Active EF Member

    Location:
    Tameside
    Wife is checking with her mum.
     
  40. 247 handyman
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    247 handyman Active EF Member

    Location:
    Tameside
    Sorry she can't remember.
     
  41. 247 handyman
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    247 handyman Active EF Member

    Location:
    Tameside
    She's just checked her memory bank and it was Cheshire central heating.
    Does this have any relevance ❓
     
  42. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

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    Northampton
    If you know who butchered you electrics, get em back to unbutcher it common sense really
     
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  43. gazdkw82
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    gazdkw82 Trainee Trainee Access

    Location:
    leicester
    I would defo call them and push to get them to rectify this.

    Theres a thin line between giving advice for you to solve the problem yourself and endangering you and your family. I'm sure you are more than capable of carrying out the work with the correct guidance in person. However we can not see or really interpret what you've got, what you've done and what you should do safely without actually being there.

    Hope you get this problem sorted
     
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  44. 247 handyman
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    247 handyman Active EF Member

    Location:
    Tameside
    The problem is it's only my logic that says it's them. There is no proof.

    I've changed the fuse to a plug in mcb for them, for my own peace of mind I don't want them struggling in the night They can just flick the switch instead.
    Doesn't solve the problem just helps them get power back on.
     
  45. 247 handyman
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    247 handyman Active EF Member

    Location:
    Tameside
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