There are many persons attributed to that quote (or words to that effect), not just EB. I used his name to ensure people didn't think it was my words :laugh3:
What do you mean by disingenuous (I've looked at the definition), perhaps you could expand? And I think it has got every relevance to the debate. Perhaps you could list the 'Lots of alternatives'; 'starving of food, stop them selling oil, stop their internet access', seem to remember another fascist tried starving us 75 years ago, it didn't work then, and won't work now. If we bomb their refineries, they won't have any to sell. Can't quite see that blocking access to the internet will work, might stop working out how to make bombs, but it won't stop them communicating.
I wouldn't disagree that bombing is just the answer, but it has haltered Daesh momentum in Iraqi.
As I said, I'm not a Labour Party supporter, but I do think it was a good speech. Have you listened to it? The 'Anti' speeches were no less reflective, but the debate that I watched, swayed me to think that the best decision had been made; only time will tell if the right decision has been made.
It's disingenyous because, as I said, nobody is seriously suggesting doing nothing. The reasoning behind the bombing has nothing to do with taking on and defeating Deash and everything to do with world image. Right wingers, nationalists everywhere, love the diea that their country is considered as great, strong, decisive, to be feared. Cameron, Benn and their cronies speak directly to this ideal. Britain HAS to be seen as a world leader, as a worthy successor to Empire. What emerges external to these shores (and to those of us who, time and again have heard this kind of flag-waving guff before) is a faintly ridiculous, post-Imperial stamping of the feet.
Want to know what you apparently can't find out for yourself? Well, here it is. Unpopular as it may seem, it's clear from history that we, the US and a few others can't abide the idea of not being involved. I don't think we need to pretend that our poltical masters aren't beholden to the military/industrial complex. Weapons, oil, gas and other products make vast swathes of money. Oil particualrly services fossil fuel energy solutions which are ultimately unsustainable. Put some real effort into renewable energy and we reduce, perhaps even end, our reliance on oil. With that comes a realisation that out involvement in the Middle East is all about oil. It's got nothing to do with despotic regimes or terror. Cameron, having failed to convince Parliament to bomb a dictator, has now managed to persuade them instead to bomb that dictator's enemies. I mean, as long as we're bombing someone, we're at least seen to be doing something, right? Since it's pretty clear that our involvement in the Middle East is what puts us on the hit list for every nut job emanating from that region, not being involved might help us to join Iceland and Tuvalu and all the other nations who aren't. It's a nice thought, if unlikely.
Now, to more practical solutions, all of them being suggested by opponents of the present madness. How about, instead of sucking up to countries like Saudi Arabia, a country which funds and supports Daesh, along with spreading its foul ideology through Sunni mosques around the world, we, I don't know, maybe refuse to deal with them. Oh I know, British Aeropsace and others will lose orders, but think of the bribe money they'll save. While we're at it, istead of supporting Turkey's appalling human rights abuses, we issue an ultimatum. They start acting like human beings, or they get slung out of the club. This is probably idealistic, but if that doesn't happen, we could always leave the club ourselves. This would bring total NATO personnel from a bit over 7,000,000 to a tad under, so no great loss really, and we'd save on subscriptions, not to mention not being obliged to pour obscene amounts of money into an non-independent 'independent' nuclear folly. It's a funny thing, that. Nine UN nations have nuclear wepaons, which means 284 don't, and a few of them have managed to avoid war for the most part. Maybe then we could afford the NHS we deserve and stop the dumbing-down so beloved of the right.
We could work much harder to stop the marginalistaion of immigrant populations, which, by every economic measure, provide us a net benefit. I'm not thinking solely of the Muslim population, but it's that one which needs the most work at the moment. Radicalisation is clearly a problem and it needs to be addressed. Perceptions need to be changed if we are to halt the tide of impressionable youth from joining radical organisations such as Daesh. We have to stop obsessing about foreign immigrants 'assimilating' into Britsih culture. I wish I knew what 'British culture' is, by the way. Morris Dancing? Highland Dancing? Stricly Come Dancing? Instead, we need to embrace the idea that there is room for diversity. In fact, it's what makes any society vibrant and interesting. That way, immigrant populations can feel they are accepted without losing their identity.
Next, we need to stop reacting to every attack with the idea that we can somehow engage these morons in a straight, face-to-face fight. We can't and we know it. What we do know is that they carry out attacks to provoke a certain rweaction and we never disappoint. They want us to feel we can't have the freedoms they so despise, so what do we do? We erode those freedoms. I don't think I need expand on that. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you never will.
We also need to decide whether or not we really do want to end repressive regimes, or simply do what we have done and end repressive regimes inconvenient rto our own ends. We find ourslves now embroiled in supporting Assad's regime, indirectly or otherwise, a regime which has killed, so far, an esitimated 200,00 people, vastly more than Daesh. We halped create organisations like al-Qaeda (to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan) and Daesh (by invading Iraq, based on a carpet of lies and later claiming that it was Ok because we'd removed a dcictator whom we'd previously supported), and we continue to support Daesh by failing to put pressure on the Saudis. Meanwhile, we seem remarkably unconcerned with the actions of other regimes across the world. Mugabe rolls along, and we could do this all day and not run out of regimes we do nothing about.
Hilary Benn is about to visit Israel to show his support for their excesses, taking with him the chair of Labour Friends of Israel. Good timing Hilary.
So, forgive me if I'm less than impressed with my nation's global actions. They stink of corporatism and complete ignorance of what makes people tick. I don't believe that ignorance is accidental.
