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I am what you chaps like to call a 5 week wonder, even though the course was 6 months its much the same thing. I am a Domestic Installer, I work solely in domestic dwellings and that is all I want to do.

Once a year the NICEIC/Elecsa (stroma in my case) come and see me and check one of my jobs (which they have chosen, so I cant just choose a 'good' one) and they spend the whole day with me thoroughly checking through all my paperwork and ensuring my knowledge is sufficient to work in DOMESTIC premises.

I do not see why I should be forced to do a course that involves working in Industrial and commercial situations when I will never enter that arena. I intend to constantly further my knowledge and skill base through courses that are relevant to what I want to do and working alongside experienced electricians.

I am good at what I do, take pride in the work and never undertake anything I am unsure about (3 phase for example).

Rather than just have a blanket term for an 'electrician', I think it ok to have 'Domestic electricians' who are capable of working safely in houses.

The changes that I would welcome and think necessary would be to make the 'Domestic Installers' course longer (perhaps a year) and making it mandatory to do some work on-site during that time. I then think I should be able to call myself a 'Domestic Electrician'


Sorry, but you need to draw the line somewhere. There is and never has been a domestic installer, it's a make believe term, made up by the make believe competent assessors!! If such a scheme is brought in, and i certainly hope it does, then you will have to be given a certain period of time (maybe 2 Years) to meet the set minimum standard... The blanket term Electrician, is the basic qualified starting point, (eg, no DI's etc)

We need to get back to basics, and define what constitutes a qualified electrician. There is no place in this industry for under qualified operatives, no-matter what you call them. All you end up doing is deskilling the industry (and what is happening at the present along with the resulting low pay scales you see being offered) and that is just about the worst thing you can do to any trade!!

Your either an Electrician that holds all the relevant qualifications and skills, or you're NOT!!
 
Sorry, but you need to draw the line somewhere. There is and never has been a domestic installer, it's a make believe term, made up by the make believe competent assessors!! If such a scheme is brought in, and i certainly hope it does, then you will have to be given a certain period of time (maybe 2 Years) to meet the set minimum standard... The blanket term Electrician, is the basic qualified starting point, (eg, no DI's etc)

We need to get back to basics, and define what constitutes a qualified electrician. There is no place in this industry for under qualified operatives, no-matter what you call them. All you end up doing is deskilling the industry (and what is happening at the present along with the resulting low pay scales you see being offered) and that is just about the worst thing you can do to any trade!!

Your either an Electrician that holds all the relevant qualifications and skills, or you're NOT!!
I agree totally ,but there are some very good domestic electricians out there that people on here would not call electricians because they don't work in the industrial sector isn't it not the same ?
 
and what is happening at the present along with the resulting low pay scales you see being offered

Totally agreed! We wouldn't have domestic electricians fighting for scraps if the schemes had never been introduced!

I priced a domestic rewire a couple of months back, got the enquiry through my website. Basic job, empty property, 3 bed semi, I priced it at £2300 for two of my guys to do in five days (electrician and labourer). I got a call from the customer saying I hadn't got the job but thank you anyway, I asked why and surprise surprise I was too expensive. Oh well, no great loss for me but what shocked me is that I had been undercut by almost £800!!!

10 years ago I could have put in a price for £3300 and been guaranteed the work!!!

Now you see why I don't even bother competing for domestic work anymore, I'll spend 15 mins coming up with a rough price and that's it. Any more time is wasted time for me.

One industrial job I quoted for a few weeks back I've now won not because I was the cheapest, but because of 5 conractors asked to quote, I was the only one who was able to carry out the work an thus the only one who provided a quote!!! The rest just put their hands up and said "not a clue".

I think I'll stick to this kinda work thankyou very much lol.
 
No offence but more fool you mate. I'm 'approved' by Elecsa (or at least I will be for the next three months) and I pay £300 less than those 'approved' by the NIC. Their 'domestic installer' category is purely marketing gumpf designed to get more money out of you for the very reason you have stated!

"Give him a badge that he will be embarressed to wear and he'll be forced to stump up the extra cash to be called something more appropriate"

I tell you what, I am going to set up a competent persons scheme right now! I'm gonna call it Rommel Certification Ltd and to be a member you have to pay me £400+VAT. With that I'll give you a pony two hour assessment and a badge to wear, on the badge will be the words "Stupid ape like creature".

Or.... Pay me 700+VAT and I'll give you another two hour pony assessment and I'll give you a badge with the words "genius" on it?

Which one ya gonna choose chump? :D
hmm...register with rommel......
or R & R self cert scheme....got a good ring to it has that


so if i set up one can i call it Jasta 5?
 
I think a lot of the problems lie with the NICEIC since it came up with defined scope approval to run along side the approved contractor scheme this to me has mushroomed into the competent persons schemes we have now. I would like to think that no self respecting electricians came up with the make a quick buck training system and schemes we have now.

We only need one line in the sand that is a base level qualification that enables everybody to work on any basic electrical system in any sector with further specialised courses or modularised training specific to the industry sectors you are working in if required quite simple really no money spinning assessment scheme complication an electrician is an electrician end of
 
Too many sparkies have a chip on their shoulder about qualifications. Just because you've done 3-5 as an apprentice doesn't make you a great sparky. I'm sure you've all been to sites where the job has been done by a proper spark and been disgusted. How many of you have taken the lid off a CU to be confronted by a birds nest? Surely it's about the ability to design, construct and test to a competent standard. It's about knowing the BGB and doing it right.

For instance when I did the 17th we were called out from the classroom to be given our results. You all know the form with the bar charts. I couldn't take my eyes off the pile of results as the top one had more white than black in the bar chart. The tutor saw me looking and said " he's failed and he's a qualified spark". Now for heavens sake how can you fail an open book exam.

Although I am not qualified as a spark to your terms ( I come from a mechanical engineering background previously a draughtsman) I took the 2391 and passed 6 years ago. To say that people can be schooled to pass is wide of the mark. Some colleges will not even offer this course as the pass rate is 30-35% and such a bad failure rate affects their income.

And another thing the tutor told me was that people who pay for their own courses are far more diligent than those whose fees are paid by their employer. He stated that many of them turn up to college half asleep.

There is merit in having your work assessed by the scams, because let's face it before then too many sparks were getting away with real shoddy workmanship, jobs had corners cut to maximise profits. Too many times certifcates were not issued. I do , however agree that a single body like the gas guys have would be much better.

Hats off to those that have pride in their work. For me there is good and bad every side of the fence, and there is much to much anecdotal evidence given here. Qualified sparks are NOT necessarily good sparks.
 
Totally agreed! We wouldn't have domestic electricians fighting for scraps if the schemes had never been introduced!

I priced a domestic rewire a couple of months back, got the enquiry through my website. Basic job, empty property, 3 bed semi, I priced it at £2300 for two of my guys to do in five days (electrician and labourer). I got a call from the customer saying I hadn't got the job but thank you anyway, I asked why and surprise surprise I was too expensive. Oh well, no great loss for me but what shocked me is that I had been undercut by almost £800!!!

10 years ago I could have put in a price for £3300 and been guaranteed the work!!!

Now you see why I don't even bother competing for domestic work anymore, I'll spend 15 mins coming up with a rough price and that's it. Any more time is wasted time for me.

One industrial job I quoted for a few weeks back I've now won not because I was the cheapest, but because of 5 conractors asked to quote, I was the only one who was able to carry out the work an thus the only one who provided a quote!!! The rest just put their hands up and said "not a clue".

I think I'll stick to this kinda work thankyou very much lol.
not been funny but 5 days to do a empty rewire, me and a friend used to do them in 2
 
I don't think it should be. It never used to be wiring by numbers until we allowed it to become so with the birth of fast track training centers and domestic installation guides.

The way I see it, if you're going to install a circuit you need to know why you are doing it, why you are installing a specific size and type of cable, why your Zs needs to be below a certain level, what voltage drop is, what size cpc you need, the effects of electromagnetism, types of protective measure etc.... I could go on and on.

The fact is, commercial and industrial wiring could just as easily become wiring by numbers if we let it, but does that make for a better standard of installer? No. Because the lack of underpinning knowledge, that core understanding of electrical science and principles is no longer there.

It could even be argued that your average one man band domestic installer needs to be more knowledgable than your average jobbing commercial spark who does nothing but sling in SWA on ladder and pull singles through trunking day in day out. I won't make that argument, but it's there!

I’m installing it as the customer has asked me??

I’m using a specific size of cable as it’s specification exceeds the amount of current that can be drawn by the load.

I’m using a specific cable for the type of job.. black rubber flex (outdoors – preferably RN), heat proof for immersion or from junction box to downlight, SWA when I need it protected, bell wire for door bells unless your worried about voltage drop then 0.75mm 2 core flex should be ok, etc etc etc

I want a low Zs as I want my protective device to work before my cable fry’s

Voltage drop can be dependent on lots of things… length of run, temperature, size of conductor… If you get too much VD then your load just isn’t going to work!

I need a certain size CPC so I shall use the adiabatic!

I understand the basics of electromagnetism but have to admit I do not know enough.

Types of protective measure… RCD’s, RCBO’s, MCB’s, fuse wire, cartridge fuse, double pole, single pole, triple pole..perhaps a rusty old nail!!

Please do go on and on Mr DS, I’m enjoying this ;)
 
Why are there so many questions about things like...RCDs, why am I reading a Voltage on a disconnected cable; for starters.

There appears to be a lack of basic electrical knowledge going on here.
 
I’m installing it as the customer has asked me??

I’m using a specific size of cable as it’s specification exceeds the amount of current that can be drawn by the load.

I’m using a specific cable for the type of job.. black rubber flex (outdoors – preferably RN), heat proof for immersion or from junction box to downlight, SWA when I need it protected, bell wire for door bells unless your worried about voltage drop then 0.75mm 2 core flex should be ok, etc etc etc

I want a low Zs as I want my protective device to work before my cable fry’s

Voltage drop can be dependent on lots of things… length of run, temperature, size of conductor… If you get too much VD then your load just isn’t going to work!

I need a certain size CPC so I shall use the adiabatic!

I understand the basics of electromagnetism but have to admit I do not know enough.

Types of protective measure… RCD’s, RCBO’s, MCB’s, fuse wire, cartridge fuse, double pole, single pole, triple pole..perhaps a rusty old nail!!

Please do go on and on Mr DS, I’m enjoying this ;)


This - You want your protective device to operate before people fry :)
 
not been funny but 5 days to do a empty rewire, me and a friend used to do them in 2

Well whoopty do aren't you ****ing fantastic! I like to do a good job for my customers.

Did those 2 days include ripping a kitchen out and detiling? Fitting an alarm system? Chasing 10 or so socket outlets in from above on the ground floor because of a screed base? Coredrilling for vents in both the kitchen and bathroom? Planning and drawing out spotlights in three rooms? Working 8 hour days instead of 12?

Get a grip man, your beginning to sound just like another clown on these forums! Look up the meaning of the word 'variable' would you chap.
 
Well whoopty do aren't you ****ing fantastic! I like to do a good job for my customers.

Did those 2 days include ripping a kitchen out and detiling? Fitting an alarm system? Chasing 10 or so socket outlets in from above on the ground floor because of a screed base? Coredrilling for vents in both the kitchen and bathroom? Planning and drawing out spotlights in three rooms? Working 8 hour days instead of 12?

Get a grip man, your beginning to sound just like another clown on these forums! Look up the meaning of the word 'variable' would you chap.

as i said im not been funny, just saying. it was subing for a electrical contractors firm. if we couldnt do them in this time they would get someone in who could.
no need to add ****** and get upset it wasnt intended as a dig.
 
Qualified sparks are NOT necessarily good sparks.

Spoken like a truly unqualified spark.

Qualified drivers are not necessarily good drivers. Does that mean that as of tomorrow we should allow all unlicensed people to drive?

There has to be a base line, some good guys will inevitably fall short of this, but a vast majority of bad guys will be unable to operate as a result. Politics my friend, it's about doing the greatest amound of good for the greatest amount of people, and in this case, the needs of the unsuspecting general public trump those of a few unqualified 'electricians'.
 
and now we get to the crunch , and squabbling lol

are we all expecting a national show of solidarity between sparks of all types for the greater good of the industry ?

oh please , someone lead the way to this idealist utopia......

until then **** the lotta ya , its every man for himself :-D
 
Well whoopty do aren't you ****ing fantastic! I like to do a good job for my customers.

It strikes me that people seem to be proud to do things in the shortest time and compromise on quality of work. I am relatively new to the trade and am pleased I put quality of work first. At the end of the day if its got my name on it, I will make sure I have done my best and made sure its of a good standard.
 
Yes this is where the squabbling starts, I'm just as much to blame! :D

Bringing the topic back on track somewhat, if there is to be a base line qualification for the trade, what should it be?

I'm tending to favour NVQ3 or equivalent. At the very least a tech cert and proof of X number of years experience if you don't hold an NVQ3. Pretty much like the JIB would grade you for a gold card.
 
This issue is made harder by the continual changing of qualification numbers (labels). Although,since introduction, the AM2 label has remained a constantl! Although it's content has varied a little over the years. This should be the model used for all future qualifications, so that everyone, employee/employer(or client) recognises the value of the label. Hence, my first vote would be keep the labelling consistent and the content controlled (defined by JIB/SJIB?), by all means change the requirements and keep it up to date with technology. The periodic recert/resit would take care of the continually evolving content. So no more spining off/splitting of the base courses by the course providers please, additional qualifications only via new courses.

So a common, recognised, starting point is needed. Everyone practising should (still) be able to pass an AM2. That could be an easily attainable starting position (and everyone would be made to resit it (to be staggered over the next five years, to avoid a concidence of renewals creating a bottleneck) ... in line with the start point for a five year recert cycle).

I'd suggest the following licenses, and specialisations (ideally the label name for the qual as well) Course content and criteria for attainment of qualification tbd:

Electrician, Domestic and Commercial (this includes both SPN and TPN installation/testing/fault diagnosis, ie everything covered under the current AM2).
Electrician, Renewable Energy Specialist (additional to the above or not?) ... almost everyone will come across this before long and should know how to deal with it safely anyway.
Electrician, Commercial and Industrial Specialist.

The commercial content should be the same for both.

There would still need to be further qualifications depending on the roles you are performing. Everyone should hold a Current Edition (17th) Wiring Regs and Building Regs qual. Anyone involved in specification of systems should hold the 2396 etc.

Another other thing I don't like about the current schemes: you can run an organisation of virtually any size and you only need to have one QS! Anyone doing an electrical role must be licensed as above.

That begs the question about apprentices, how are they handled in the context of everyone needs to be qualified before doing work?

Having said that, I'm voting for NVQ3 given the options above.
 

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