Lister Petter Generator

[eddiecme]

Guys, looking for a bit of help with a Generator.

My old man has some land with a small workshop in the middle of nowhere. He's bought a generator previously used as backup for a vets. I'm putting it at about 20-25 years old, it's lister petter and thats as far as i've got with it. Apparently it's 10kva, the plaque from the top of the genset with the model and general characteristics is missing and it comes with no manual. So i've not really got a lot to go on.
I was hoping that from the pictures someone maybe able to identify what it is? and what the controls do? all the 110v points are cut off inside, you can just see on the pictures.
There is no other electrical supply in the workshop, it will be used for lights/small welder etc, i've already run in the 80m SWA to the workshop from the generator house.
As i've not done a lot with generators i was hoping to find out what earthing arrangement i should adopt?
pics - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y7as66f1q3xv0cr/AAAvUjZAzFmGpVdXZfIAV2rla
thanks
ed

 

[davesparks]

Earthing arrangement is easy, you want to be creating your own TNS system.
The Star point of the alternator should be linked to the frame of the generator, the outgoing earth terminal and a decent earth electrode.

 

[davesparks]

Just looked at the pics, it looks a little bit merkin to me!

 

[Knobhead]

Its many years since I installed a pair of them. A damned good bit of kit.

As Dave said, TN-S. I use an Ufer earth for the two I installed, but a couple of decent rods will do.

If anyone asks about the Ufer earth, they were on a concrete raft which just happened to be on an island.

 

[Engineer54]

If the workshop is on some land in the middle of nowhere, why pray are you installing this generator some 80 metres away from the building it's supplying?? That to me, that is just plumb mad!!

 

[D Skelton]

I don't know exactly where you are down South, I'm in Brighton. We're doing a fair amount of work with generators so if you need a hand gimme a call. 01273 80 30 10.

I mean this in the most respectful way possible fella; if you're unsure at any point regarding your proposed set up, don't just 'have-a-go', get help, genny set ups can be lethal if done incorrectly.

 

[davesparks]

And if you're not quite that far down south then You can call me.

I likes a nice generator I does, there's nothing quite like a nice generator, there's nothing finer than getting to work on electrics and Diesel engines all in one job
Which brings me on to the question of whether it actually starts or not?

It looks like some aftermarket modifications have occurred there (red n yellow?).
and the colour scheme of the original is a tad odd, my first guess would be red & black for one voltage and blue & white for another, but can think if other things that could be.

It was the white one in there that made me wonder if it was a bit merkin.

 

[R G]

I worked in the Petters diesel plant in the mid 70s in Staines , its long gone now , but the engines live on I have come across a few of them but the company no longer exists ..

 

[eddiecme]

Earthing arrangement is easy, you want to be creating your own TNS system.
The Star point of the alternator should be linked to the frame of the generator, the outgoing earth terminal and a decent earth electrode.

Thanks dave, the link to the frame is already in place i can see that now. Rod in the ground at gennie location should be easy is there a specific resistance it has to meet?

 

[eddiecme]

If the workshop is on some land in the middle of nowhere, why pray are you installing this generator some 80 metres away from the building it's supplying?? That to me, that is just plumb mad!!

I agree, but its mainly down to noise nuiscence, even though it is in the middle of nowhere there is a single cottage about 30m from the boundary. Annoyingly the dist poles run through the field but SSE want 8k plus for a pole top tranny and thats with us doing the rest!

 

[eddiecme]

I don't know exactly where you are down South, I'm in Brighton. We're doing a fair amount of work with generators so if you need a hand gimme a call. 01273 80 30 10.

I mean this in the most respectful way possible fella; if you're unsure at any point regarding your proposed set up, don't just 'have-a-go', get help, genny set ups can be lethal if done incorrectly.

Thanks, i certainly do not claim to know anything about generators, i will almost certainly take you up on this, it looks like its been modified by someone in the past. Im near wareham (poole) in dorset. Appreciated

 

[eddiecme]

And if you're not quite that far down south then You can call me.

I likes a nice generator I does, there's nothing quite like a nice generator, there's nothing finer than getting to work on electrics and Diesel engines all in one job
Which brings me on to the question of whether it actually starts or not?

It looks like some aftermarket modifications have occurred there (red n yellow?).
and the colour scheme of the original is a tad odd, my first guess would be red & black for one voltage and blue & white for another, but can think if other things that could be.

It was the white one in there that made me wonder if it was a bit merkin.

there is definitely after market mods, i'm too inexperienced in the field to know exactly what they are although i can spot most of the additional cables/cut cables inside. It was startes before they brought it back and apparantly has only ran for 400hours!

 

[D Skelton]

Thanks dave, the link to the frame is already in place i can see that now. Rod in the ground at gennie location should be easy is there a specific resistance it has to meet?

Dave's reply was made on the assumption that you'd want to rely on automatic disconnection of supply as the installation's protective measure. If this installation will remain under the control of a skilled or instructed person, I'd probably go down a different route and design using electrical separation as the protective measure instead. No rod needed then.

Thanks, i certainly do not claim to know anything about generators, i will almost certainly take you up on this, it looks like its been modified by someone in the past. Im near wareham (poole) in dorset. Appreciated

No worries mate, any time.

 

[Robotstar5]

You need a proper generator......

 

[Engineer54]

What sort of loads will this generator be supplying and for what sort of durations?? I ask, because you don't want to be running this 10 KVA genny for long periods of time (like all day) without a decent load being drawn. Rule of thumb would be around 70%, other wise you'll stand a good chance of coking up the engine, or at the very least incur high/frequent maintenance costs etc....

 

[eddiecme]

What sort of loads will this generator be supplying and for what sort of durations?? I ask, because you don't want to be running this 10 KVA genny for long periods of time (like all day) without a decent load being drawn. Rule of thumb would be around 70%, other wise you'll stand a good chance of coking up the engine, or at the very least incur high/frequent maintenance costs etc....

That shouldnt be a problem, it will be running a welder/elec shower/oven/lighting/other power, obviously not all at the same time but it will have a large percentage of total load on at any given time. Thanks for the advice

 

[Engineer54]

That shouldnt be a problem, it will be running a welder/elec shower/oven/lighting/other power, obviously not all at the same time but it will have a large percentage of total load on at any given time. Thanks for the advice

No problem, ...Unfortunately it's a very real phenomenon, that to many without generator experience often gets overlooked. I have over the years been confronted with generators that have been grossly oversized. The only recourse at times, has been to provide the generator with an expensive automatic variable resistance load bank that can provide suitable loading as and when required during operation. 9 times out of 10, these generators have been over sized/spec'd by our cousins, Mechanical Engineers!! ...lol!!

Generator engines work at optimum best when loaded, 70% ''minimum'' especially diesel engines. On 2 stroke diesel engines (normally stand-by generator applications) it's critical....

 

[Knobhead]

I agree, but its mainly down to noise nuiscence, even though it is in the middle of nowhere there is a single cottage about 30m from the boundary. Annoyingly the dist poles run through the field but SSE want 8k plus for a pole top tranny and thats with us doing the rest!

That’s the reason I ended up fitting the generators. £10K 30 years ago for an 11KV line and transformer. Then the Peak Park Planning Board stuck their oar in, wanting the 11KV to go UG. At that point we chucked the towel in.

Because of the proximity of the river the two sets were mounted on 3’ high concrete plinths. The plinth rebar was tied in to the foundation slab rebar so we made use of it for the Ufer earth. No need for rods as the supply never left the building, I still wouldn’t have fitted them if it had.

I don’t think Lister Petter are still going, their place in Peterborough closed 20 years ago. They were really helpful.

Lovely job, middle of summer at the side of the river. What more could you want?

 

[davesparks]

No problem, ...Unfortunately it's a very real phenomenon, that to many without generator experience often gets overlooked. I have over the years been confronted with generators that have been grossly oversized. The only recourse at times, has been to provide the generator with an expensive automatic variable resistance load bank that can provide suitable loading as and when required during operation. 9 times out of 10, these generators have been over sized/spec'd by our cousins, Mechanical Engineers!! ...lol!!

Generator engines work at optimum best when loaded, 70% ''minimum'' especially diesel engines. On 2 stroke diesel engines (normally stand-by generator applications) it's critical....

Now, how does that work with a twinset?

 

[davesparks]

Dave's reply was made on the assumption that you'd want to rely on automatic disconnection of supply as the installation's protective measure. If this installation will remain under the control of a skilled or instructed person, I'd probably go down a different route and design using electrical separation as the protective measure instead. No rod needed then.



No worries mate, any time.

It's a workshop in what sounds like the middle of nowhere. I would expect there to be possible extraneous parts/stray earth potentials all over the shop. Obviously doesn't stop you from using electrical separation, but I'm wondering what the advantage would be to outweigh the cost.
Obviously the reduced chances of an electric shock are the big advantage, those blue transformers are great when testing equipment live.