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Discuss Locations containg a bath or shower - Additional protection in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectrciansForums.co.uk.

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  1. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    I do a lot of domestic bathroom refurb's. Sometimes its as little as replacing the main luminaire.

    As regards additional protection by RCD, I sought some guidance from my scheme on RCD requirement, when doing as above. And was confirmed that a like for like replacement of luminaires or accessories, in an existing install, did not require additional protection by RCD (supplementary bonding in place if necessary).

    I have one to do in a week, replacing down light & extractor fan in ensuite. However, they have an existing shaver socket, they want relocating. There is a cupboard, outside zone 2, in which there is an existing circuit (no RCD) supplying a luminaire, which will become redundant. I was contemplating using this to supply the relocated shaver socket?

    Wadda do ya think? Or am I over complicating things :)
     
  2. Murdoch
    Online

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    Tricky one........

    Like for like - comment on invoice

    Relocating the shaver point - I would be inclined to be stricter and insist on the RCD
     
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  3. Richard Burns
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    Richard Burns Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Cambridgeshire
    Business Name:
    Richard Burns
    The bathroom is defined by walls, floors, ceiling, doors and fixed partitions, etc. therefore you can (possibly) consider the cupboard to be outside of the bathroom and not require RCD protection to the supplying circuit (so long as the circuit does not also feed the bathroom or pass within the walls of the bathroom).
    A shaver socket on its own (not the supplying circuit) would not need 30mA RCD protection as it is protected by electrical separation rather than ADS.
    However I would supply the 30mA RCD protection anyway if practical to do so.
     
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  4. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    The actual fix is quite easy, the mcb can be replaced with an RCBO. The current shaver socket is adjacent to the sink, would be moved into a cupboard to another existing circuit on an mcb, almost like, 'like for like'.

    Thanks for the advice, I had emailed my scheme, I'll report back with their advice.
     
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  5. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    fit the RCBO then your arse is covered.
     
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  6. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    If an existing circuit of a location containing a bath or shower is extended, at least the extended part of the existing circuit must be provided with RCD protection. Supplementary bonding in a bathroom or shower room must be provided unless all the requirements in the 17th Edition for the omission of supplementary bonding are met.
     
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  7. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    But that's the rub, I'm not extending it. I'm disconnecting the luminaire and reconnecting the shaver socket?

    Edit; supplementary bonding is only required if something is extraneous :)
     
  8. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    Thought you were relocating the shaver socket ie moving it to another location in the bathroom.
    Fed of the lighting I would guess?
     
  9. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    sorry your honour, i was only moving i tand never thought of fitting a RCBO till i read the local rag and saw my customer was brown bread.
     
  10. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    All circuits in the location would still need supplementary bonding together regardless if associated pipework was plastic if no rcd protection was afforded
    Really only a shower and lighting I suppose normally
     
  11. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    Sorry its difficult to describe. Existing shaver socket point needs to go. Customer still wants a shaver socket, doesn't want light in cupboard anymore (it's bathroom furniture, not a walk in cupboard), so I will disconnect light and reconnect shaver socket to it. The old light was on it's own separate circuit (for some reason), it's whether I leave it on mcb or convert to RCBO.
     
  12. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    I don't see the point of bonding a plastic pipe?
     
  13. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    If it's like for like it's more like maintenance, however you could always improve the safety by fitting an rcbo
     
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  14. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    Circuits still need supplementary bonding together.
    Obviously not the pipework if plastic
    There's a good detailed drawing in guidance note 8 if you have a copy?
     
  15. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    Suppose I'm just interested in the logic of it, bearing in mind I can replace luminaires like for like.
     
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  16. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    And if the metal pipework is not extraneous?

    Edit; thanks I'll have a gander.
     
  17. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    When we supplementary bond in the bathroom without rcd protection we bond all associated circuits in the location and any extraneous parts like pipes.
    Nothing's different with non extraneous pipework apart from the pipes , which won't require supplementary bonding.
    Circuits don't change tho do they?
     
  18. Wilko
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    Wilko Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Berkshire
    Business Name:
    Wilko Electrics
    Hi MW - for what it's worth, I would probably add the rcbo to the job and notify it.
     
  19. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    Because new work like alterations need to meet the requirements of bs7671
     
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  20. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    But if there's no extraneous conductive parts, there's no reason to supplementary bond them. In this case I only have one circuit. So if I use this 2nd light circuit (without RCBO) you saying I have to local supplementary bond both these circuits?
     
  21. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
  22. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    I'm not questioning new work, i.e. adding a new luminaire or new shaver socket. Just replacing light with shaver socket, which I guess is not like for like?
     
  23. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
  24. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    Thanks have the page open in front of me also. :)

    Actually looking at Fig 8.5?
     
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  25. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    8.5 showing associated bathroom circuits (shower,lighting and heater)supplementary bonded together with plastic pipework installation to bathroom
     
  26. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    Thought I would just report back. Elecsa Technical agreed with you chaps.

    My suggestion of replacing luminaire with shaver socket on existing circuit, would no longer be regarded as maintenance. Therefore the alteration/addition would need to comply with current regulations. :)
     
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  27. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    Rcbo it pal.
     
  28. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    Gonna, and the rest of the upstairs lighting!
     
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