Discuss My first difficult client! in the Industrial Electricians' Talk area at ElectriciansForums.net

I dont know if ceiling has been plastered. I went in 700mm from wall.

The client is really quite difficult Murdoch. I made it clear it was £360 labour and what ever materials cost, they now want the job at £360 inc materials as they say I did not mention this. The couple are both really stressed with each other, their dogs just been put down as it bit the neighbour (huge continuously barking alsation) and the boss (the lady) is just chaotic!!

If its not been plastered at least you'll be able to see exactky where the joists are by the builders screws!

I make a point of dropping in on the client/builder in such situations during the project to ensure things don't go horibly wrong!
 
Just tell him you'll make the holes and find the cable at your normal hourly rate. It wasn't part of your original scope of works so it's an extra.

Just for future it's imperative the everything that's agreed or requested by the client, no matter how small and inconsequential it may seem at the time, is in writing. If necessary email him that evening stating every decision he's made during your meeting with a request for clarification within 24 hrs if there's something he disagrees with. Unfortunately verbal instructions and agreements don't cut the mustard, if there's ever any comeback or disagreements later on.

I think thats very sound advice Marvo and I have learnt my lesson on this point.
 
No matter how big or small the job...drawings weather hand drawn or cadded, are important so all can work together....now back to you, as this is your job to fit the lights.....suggest markup and drill the holes then rod out the cables, and get the job finished. Sorry to be blunt, but trusting others without planning, will always result in this situation.
 
If its not been plastered at least you'll be able to see exactky where the joists are by the builders screws!

I make a point of dropping in on the client/builder in such situations during the project to ensure things don't go horibly wrong!

That is also good advice Murdoch, thanks.

I make a point of thinking 'How is this going to affect the builder/plumber/plasterer' and expected the same!! I realise that was a bit naive.
 
Another golden rule here is photo's. You can never take too many of a job from start to finish at every stage - just in case (like this). I'm going through small claims at the moment with an arse of a client from over a year ago that's £2k down on the deal, claims he never asked for anything other than the original scope. I've got picture after picture of every single extra, modification etc.
 
Sounds like they want you to walk away from it so they can do the second fix like you mentioned earlier.
They know where the cables are and dropping the price on you is just being awkward.

People bang on about cowboy builders and they have progs on the tv about them but you never hear about cowboy customers do you?
 
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You have been left in an unfortunate position, but unfortunately one that comes up far too frequently.
When customers are doing the planning things can go badly wrong.
Builders do tend to go ahead and deal with any difficulties as they see fit. Communication is not a strong point.
If you are to cut the holes then explain that this is an extra time requirement and will cost x amount more.
You should really give a written quote / estimate so that you do not get "oh I did not realise x was not part of the cost you quoted"
Remember to try and stay calm and explain clearly, and in writing if necessary, at all times (once you can do this tell me how!)

You should be able to reach your cables as you have left plenty there, unless he has cut them short to make it easier to get the ceiling up!.
Then using a metal / stud detector for finding the plasterboard nails or just tapping for hollow spaces and dead joists should allow you to plan where the fittings should go. Then you can start (gently cutting the first hole, just the drill into the plasterboard as short as possible to avoid catching unknown cables and once the hole is started just use the cutter, cut out the last paper with a knife, unless you can see the hole is clear through the drill hole.
Once you have a hole cut check it is where you expected (ulp) and if so then you can cut the other holes in relation and fish out cables with a wire coat hanger or if you are posh with a cable rod with a hook. If the cable is not visible or reachable by hand (if you do not have ham hands like me) then a flexi camera can look for them to aim the coat hanger, or a small mirror on a rod for the cheaper option.

Good luck and stick with it, bad news travels fastest, if you can remain professional then you should get a good response after the job, with any luck.

I had one very bad job that was driving me crazy and I thought I was burning boats at a fantastic rate and later they recommenced me to some one else!
You can never tell.
Sympathise but do not empathise.
 
have you been paid for the 1st fix? if so and he won't accept the extra cost to find the cables, walk away. bear in mind that the ceiling couls be stuffed full of insulation and the cables may be impossible to find.
 
You have my sympathy...some builders only have one thing in mind ..do their bit get paid and sod everyone else..probably bragging in their pub after 16 pints "how they screwed the sparky" on their latest job.i had a kitchen ceiling with 16 d/lighters...and knowing how women can change their mind,
ran cable back and forth along each joist...clipping very lightly just enough to keep out of the way of the board fixers.made a plan on the joist layout. 2 months later the customer changed all the original lighting positions.. but it wasn't a major problem locating the feeds.
 
A large percentage of builders want to do our job and don't give a fxck if the lights are right next to the joists or directly under existing cables.

As others have said be sympathetic and "help" the customer if they are reasonable - yes it may cost you an hour or two but another very happy customer is worth its weight in gold!
 
Hi HHD, you can download the Bosch measurement camera app (which has been discussed here before). It's really good cos you can take a photo and then edit it with measurement's of joists, cable runs etc. Put all photos/ notes in a folder for that job. Then when you return for second fix you shouldn't have to do too much hunting. :willy_nilly:
Doesn't help with your current situation but I'm sure you'll heed all the good advice, given, as everyday is a learning day.
 
Well!!! I have spoken to the builder at last and he seems like a thoroughly decent bloke.

The customer is basically trying it on. She told the builder she had changed her mind about the downlights and didn't want them and would try to knock the price down with the electrician by saying they were not spaced correctly (the only grain of truth was that the builder had said 2 of the cables may have to be brought through to the other side of the joist they were hanging on to get all the lights symetrical - a 2 minute job).

Unbelievable.... although I'm sure you guys have come across this type of thing before.

Luckily its just the husband there on friday and he seems ok(ish), so I should get paid!!

The builder said he has had a nightmare with her as well and will be saying he is far too busy when asked for any future jobs!!

You have to be multi-talented as an electrician dont you..

debt collector, counsellor, diplomat!!!
 
Well!!! I have spoken to the builder at last and he seems like a thoroughly decent bloke.

The customer is basically trying it on. She told the builder she had changed her mind about the downlights and didn't want them and would try to knock the price down with the electrician by saying they were not spaced correctly (the only grain of truth was that the builder had said 2 of the cables may have to be brought through to the other side of the joist they were hanging on to get all the lights symetrical - a 2 minute job).

Unbelievable.... although I'm sure you guys have come across this type of thing before.

Luckily its just the husband there on friday and he seems ok(ish), so I should get paid!!

The builder said he has had a nightmare with her as well and will be saying he is far too busy when asked for any future jobs!!

You have to be multi-talented as an electrician dont you..

debt collector, counsellor, diplomat!!!
don't forget mind reader and knowing when to walk away.lol
 
don't forget mind reader and knowing when to walk away.lol

I'd quite like to walk away from this one Phil, but that really would leave them in a whole heap of trouble trying to get it signed off. I shall be as quick as I can, collect paymet, give the MWC's and scarper, never to return!! :smile:
 

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