New socket on ring main - replace consumer unit?

[hightower]

Where does BS 7671 say it may be used?

 

[Andy78]

Where does BS 7671 say it may be used?

notes for the installer, model forms

 

[streamer]

notes for the installer, model forms

I think that means it may be used instead of an installation certificate, rather than it may or may not be used.

 

[sparksburnout]

OK, if we are going to be picky here, lets take the example of the replacement socket. Customer has rang and said it has got whacked and is all broken, can you come and have a look. It is on the way to a decent rewire you have on the go. So you call in, hoping for a bit of pie and mash (hope that doesn't start another debate) and a sharp exit. Socket is in bits, so swap it, do a quick Zs, everything is good. Now, really, what you should do is an RFC test at the CU to make sure there is still continuity, and then maybe all the other stuff like IR and RCD if present. But hang on, you need to do the RFC test first just in case it is broken anyway, before you start, else if it is broken after have you done it was it like it anyway? No time for a cuppa and so on, just sorted a potentially dangerous situation out and got a bit of beer money, everyone is happy including the customer. Now, in these circumstances, are we going to disconnect the circuit and do said tests? Or are we going to move on leaving the situation better than before, and crack on with our rewire? Or maybe refuse to change it at all if the RFC is not continuous? We could spend another 20 mins discussing the virtues of RCD protection and periodic testing and bringing the bonding up to spec, but 99/100 customers will just watch us driving away shaking their head, thinking "just like plumbers that lot....." And THEN we have to write out a MWC cert and drop it off another time unless you have a portable printer in the van, cos Mrs Jones does not have email. It's not easy, being cheesy.

 

[hightower]

@streamer that was always my take on it too. "You must certify but here's a shortened MWC for smaller works to save you a good bit of hassle" was always my understanding.

 

[Andy78]

I think that means it may be used instead of an installation certificate, rather than it may or may not be used.

I would disagree as the rest of the regulations refer to the production of a certificate being necessary for new installations and alterations and additions to existing installations. As replacement of an accessory does not fall under any of that remit then a certificate is not necessary. But it may be used for that purpose in addition to being used for alterations and additions.

 

[Andy78]

Balls to it !! I'm going to find out once and for all.

In the morning I'm booking myself onto a NICEIC 3 day course in accessory changing. A snip at £420 +vat. I'm expecting the certificate conundrum to take up most of the third day as it's quite a complex issue.

NICEIC | Practical training courses to enhance your industry knowledge - https://www.niceic.com/contractor/training-courses/electrical-courses/accessory-replacement

 

[streamer]

OK, if we are going to be picky here, lets take the example of the replacement socket. Customer has rang and said it has got whacked and is all broken, can you come and have a look. It is on the way to a decent rewire you have on the go. So you call in, hoping for a bit of pie and mash (hope that doesn't start another debate) and a sharp exit. Socket is in bits, so swap it, do a quick Zs, everything is good. Now, really, what you should do is an RFC test at the CU to make sure there is still continuity, and then maybe all the other stuff like IR and RCD if present. But hang on, you need to do the RFC test first just in case it is broken anyway, before you start, else if it is broken after have you done it was it like it anyway? No time for a cuppa and so on, just sorted a potentially dangerous situation out and got a bit of beer money, everyone is happy including the customer. Now, in these circumstances, are we going to disconnect the circuit and do said tests? Or are we going to move on leaving the situation better than before, and crack on with our rewire? Or maybe refuse to change it at all if the RFC is not continuous? We could spend another 20 mins discussing the virtues of RCD protection and periodic testing and bringing the bonding up to spec, but 99/100 customers will just watch us driving away shaking their head, thinking "just like plumbers that lot....." And THEN we have to write out a MWC cert and drop it off another time unless you have a portable printer in the van, cos Mrs Jones does not have email. It's not easy, being cheesy.

I like it! I'm certainly not questioning your logic. And I agree with most of what you've said.

 

[sparksburnout]

Balls to it !! I'm going to find out once and for all.

In the morning I'm booking myself onto a NICEIC 3 day course in accessory changing. A snip at £420 +vat. I'm expecting the certificate conundrum to take up most of the third day as it's quite a complex issue.

NICEIC | Practical training courses to enhance your industry knowledge - https://www.niceic.com/contractor/training-courses/electrical-courses/accessory-replacement

Hahahaha All aboard!!! I thought you were taking the proverbial there Andy, but its real!! Wow. £420 smackers.
Your right of course. 5 mins socket replacement instructions, 20 mins H&S, 6 Hours paperwork completion, that will be £420 please. And you thought Ozzy was mad!

 

[Andy78]

Hahahaha All aboard!!! I thought you were taking the proverbial there Andy, but its real!! Wow. £420 smackers.
Your right of course. 5 mins socket replacement instructions, 20 mins H&S, 6 Hours paperwork completion, that will be £420 please. And you thought Ozzy was mad!

Amazing isn't it ? I'm not going to get into why the NICEIC think that course even needs to exist.....

 

[sparksburnout]

Amazing isn't it ? I'm not going to get into why the NICEIC think that course even needs to exist.....

Going off the rails on a crazy train?

 

[Midwest]

ooops, page already revealed.

 

[Midwest]

I think that means it may be used instead of an installation certificate, rather than it may or may not be used.

It doesn't say instead of, just says may.

 

[Midwest]

OK, if we are going to be picky here, lets take the example of the replacement socket. Customer has rang and said it has got whacked and is all broken, can you come and have a look. It is on the way to a decent rewire you have on the go. So you call in, hoping for a bit of pie and mash (hope that doesn't start another debate) and a sharp exit. Socket is in bits, so swap it, do a quick Zs, everything is good. Now, really, what you should do is an RFC test at the CU to make sure there is still continuity, and then maybe all the other stuff like IR and RCD if present. But hang on, you need to do the RFC test first just in case it is broken anyway, before you start, else if it is broken after have you done it was it like it anyway? No time for a cuppa and so on, just sorted a potentially dangerous situation out and got a bit of beer money, everyone is happy including the customer. Now, in these circumstances, are we going to disconnect the circuit and do said tests? Or are we going to move on leaving the situation better than before, and crack on with our rewire? Or maybe refuse to change it at all if the RFC is not continuous? We could spend another 20 mins discussing the virtues of RCD protection and periodic testing and bringing the bonding up to spec, but 99/100 customers will just watch us driving away shaking their head, thinking "just like plumbers that lot....." And THEN we have to write out a MWC cert and drop it off another time unless you have a portable printer in the van, cos Mrs Jones does not have email. It's not easy, being cheesy.

I was fighting your corner, and you just go and blown it.

 

[sparksburnout]

I was fighting your corner, and you just go and blown it.

Sorry George. Keep the faith man.

 

[Midwest]

Ok Ozzy

 

[andyb]

OK, if we are going to be picky here, lets take the example of the replacement socket. Customer has rang and said it has got whacked and is all broken, can you come and have a look. It is on the way to a decent rewire you have on the go. So you call in, hoping for a bit of pie and mash (hope that doesn't start another debate) and a sharp exit. Socket is in bits, so swap it, do a quick Zs, everything is good. Now, really, what you should do is an RFC test at the CU to make sure there is still continuity, and then maybe all the other stuff like IR and RCD if present. But hang on, you need to do the RFC test first just in case it is broken anyway, before you start, else if it is broken after have you done it was it like it anyway? No time for a cuppa and so on, just sorted a potentially dangerous situation out and got a bit of beer money, everyone is happy including the customer. Now, in these circumstances, are we going to disconnect the circuit and do said tests? Or are we going to move on leaving the situation better than before, and crack on with our rewire? Or maybe refuse to change it at all if the RFC is not continuous? We could spend another 20 mins discussing the virtues of RCD protection and periodic testing and bringing the bonding up to spec, but 99/100 customers will just watch us driving away shaking their head, thinking "just like plumbers that lot....." And THEN we have to write out a MWC cert and drop it off another time unless you have a portable printer in the van, cos Mrs Jones does not have email. It's not easy, being cheesy.

Don't know where all this comes from Sparks, I've never mentioned anything like this. I'm sure I've already said I do not do these tests, they're not required for a socket swap.
I do the same as you, quick Zs, look at the board and bonding. I don't always do a mwc though I generally do for a socket swap and I always do if there are issues with the installation.

 

[Toneyz]

I got told by NICEIC did not have to do MW for like fore like socket/switch replacement etc but nothing wrong with it but good idear to at least note a loop test RCD test (if applicable) quick look at bond mains etc its all a arse covering thing these days.

 

[Midwest]

Whilst I can't criticise (perhaps not the right word), I can't whole heartily agree with everything that's been said.

If you asked me to install a new socket without RCD protection (even though existing adjacent have none). I would decline. The RCD protection is there for good reason. Even though your trailing lead has none either, I don't understand peoples mindset, when they want to change something for 'neatness', but do not wish to consider safety.

My opinion.

Do I feel a right dick. Just been to an old ladies flat she's recently moved into. She wants a few odds & sods doing. One job is to add a new twin socket in the kitchen above the work top. Currently she has a trailing lead and socket, plugged into an existing socket below the work top. Thing is no RCD on the RFC, old CU so no chance of adding a RCBO.

I've said no, but could install a surface RCD socket, even though the rest of the kitchen sockets aren't. Someone tell me I'm not being a right arse.

 

[westward10]

You are not being a right arse